Web Design Forums

chaos.dave · 15-01-2008, 12:21

As we all know, the web design industry has changed alot.
The introduction of CSS has bought some people forwards, and kept some people back.

My intention in this topic is not to take a dig at anyone for what they are or are not capable of, but rather to discuss what i find to be a major cause of the problem.

My biggest hate is the fact that my school teach ICT for GCSE's, and expect people to use Microsoft word. At this level I can understand that most 15 year olds are familiar with the software, and its only a small part of the ICT portfolio, so no biggy.

But then I discovered from my friend who is taking A-level ICT, that they teach how to use Dreamweaver. This is definitely better than word, but the problem is they are teaching them to lay stuff out using tables.

I take A-level Computing, and today the topic of HTML was introduced to the students who were slightly less familiar with it.
But the problem is again that they teach us to use tables for layout, and they don't even make any attempt at mentioming CSS or div's.

I completely understand that this stuff could take too long to teach properly, including CSS and web standards etc.
I also realise that its down to the Examination boards to set the expectations from the course.
But these methods of teaching the subject are definitely a major reason why people have no idea how to properly create their websites, and then get laughed at by people like us who have more knowledge on the subject.

We need to stop teaching stuff the old fashioned way.

Im finished ranting, but i just wanted to raise the subject and get an idea of other peoples views/experiences on this matter.

djeglin · 15-01-2008, 12:34

I remember being at university in 2002 (admittedly, not on a web course, but on a media course with a web module), and them teaching web design by WYSIWYG table layouts. I didn't go back to the class, and complained to the course director, because I felt that this was a horrible state for a degree course to be in. The next year, I taught the web basics module, teaching at least html and css (not semantics etc... that could come later), for extra credit... About 26 of the 30 students in the class passed, 5 of them with 1st quality grades. Incidentally, the ones that didnt pass were the ones that didnt turn up. It took some extra work to get people to really get to grips with the stuff, but they got there in the end with a bit of help.

Schools shouldn't be teaching table based, or WYSIWYG development, either. There is a serious danger that kids will learn the wrong skills, the wrong way of doing things, and expect that what they learn will be a good way of making a bit of money for themselves (I know I was designing sites for people when I was still at school!). We then head back in the direction of where we were a few years ago, when the quality of work in general is diluted by the poor work coming from these kids. Also, if they move on to try and make a career from it, they will have to try and "unlearn" everything they learned on the topic at school... What is the point in that?

Schools (and examination boards) should be expected to keep up to date, just as universities are, and tailor the curriculum to the abilities that can be expected of the age group. Teaching something that is completely useless in the real world, or in higher education, should not be what school is about.

steveb · 15-01-2008, 12:35

I heard the other day that the Graphics College of Helsinki was still using Photoshop 4.0 until 2005!

Teachers can only teach what they know and what the curriculum allows. It's simply not possible for a high school curriculum to keep pace with web tehnology.

chaos.dave · 15-01-2008, 15:03

well yes that's fair enough, i understand that. I do.

But if their going to teach something, i do feel it should be taught right, especially when my teacher is qualified.

But yes, for the 15-16 year olds in high school, i admit, its unnecessary, but by college years, they should at least be attempting to teach things properly.
I go to a college, which is also takes 2 high school aged year groups.

Quote:

Schools (and examination boards) should be expected to keep up to date, just as universities are, and tailor the curriculum to the abilities that can be expected of the age group. Teaching something that is completely useless in the real world, or in higher education, should not be what school is about.

My thoughts exactly.
Although this sounds easier than it is.

herkalees · 15-01-2008, 15:14

This is precisely why I'm going to be teaching at the local university this coming summer. Proper Markup 101...

brooks · 15-01-2008, 15:48

While I was studying my A-levels last year we did a web design unit which focused on Macromedia Dreamweaver, with the final outcome, I kid you not, being marked from a printed file. I got 94% in the unit, not because of my highly superior standards compliant mark-up but only because my design worked.

The abominations people were producing made me want to puke up each lesson, it simply was not taught, we were taught how to create a layer for the overall size and then left to our own devices, the amount of people that said 'I hope my mum/friend/cousin uses this for their shop' was ridiculous.

It's the same with all new-media applications such as Photography, Graphic Design and Web Design - people think they can do it when they've got the software. I just wish I could get people into the frame of mind to improve. It really bugs me with photography at the moment, after making the leap from a film to digital SLR, everyone thinks they can do it because they have the tool of the trade. It appals me, the lack of detail people know and are taught is horrible.

We do need to stop teaching the old fashioned way, but we also need to teach people that it is hard work, and tell them how to improve and don't just think you are a web designer after making one website.

chaos.dave · 15-01-2008, 15:49

I have actually considered teaching it as well, if the opportunity was ever there.

But it wont be this year, seen as I'm still in full time education until at least the summer.

KrazyKel · 15-01-2008, 18:41

Im on my 3rd year at uni, was doing 'digital media' then 'interactive media' and had a couple of web modules - most other modules were using Director!

The web modules i found were useless, i hadnt been taught web stuff at college or school and when i came to do the web modules at uni they never taught us html css or anything. nothing about designs or layout!
The one module was php which we had to do a restaurant website but all that was taught was setting up databases, adding content, dynamic tables and stuff!
Didnt even learn the basics of html, others in the class may have learnt some at college etc but a lot hadnt so there really should have been more taught during the 1st years!

Ive just signed up for college part time to do a web design course in the evenings while im still at uni to learn some of the 'basics' so i just hope the course will be good enough now!

Shiro · 15-01-2008, 19:39

What you gotta realize is that the goal of these courses isn't to make a few kids good at web design, its to give all the kids a basic knowledge of how web pages are made and work, so that they can have an idea of this as they progress in life.

website-design · 16-01-2008, 12:33

I agree with you! Nobody wants to be out of date with technology! ... When we still have a chance to learn new things we should embrace it and move forward. HTML and CSS is the way to go! ... CSS is definately making a big change...

Better to learn CSS now than later :-) ... plus it saves lots of time!

Hatch Media · 03-02-2008, 17:55

I can't remember one thing form my education that i actually use today... oh apart from english...

Hatch Media · 03-02-2008, 17:56

Self taught and trial and error is the best way and the only way to learn

RaelRode · 03-02-2008, 18:49

On my ICT course at school, we had to use DReamweaver to lay out tables etc, and the teacher thought he was cool because he could make a table in code view. So when I showed him my validated xHTML/CSS source code with a flashy javascript navigation, not only did his jaw break through into china, but I've been left to my own devices on all the units, as well as getting to teach a bit of CSS to the class. Even though they sat there and threw pencils around the room!!

Samione · 03-02-2008, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos.dave

I have actually considered teaching it as well, if the opportunity was ever there.

But it wont be this year, seen as I'm still in full time education until at least the summer.

Do you enjoy a-level computing? I'm taking it at the moment and hate it. I'm not a fan of coding for a start, which isn't that much of a biggie seeing as we spent about 6 weeks learning VB and that was it. Seems everything we learn about relating to computers and systems is referenced to stuff that was around over a decade ago and is completely obsolete now. What's the fucking point? Granted there is a minute amount that is fundamental but the rest... :/

15-01-2008, 12:21	#1 (permalink)
chaos.dave "Everybody's Dead Dave" Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Loughborough, UK Posts: 135	Web Design foolishly taught in high school/college? As we all know, the web design industry has changed alot. The introduction of CSS has bought some people forwards, and kept some people back. My intention in this topic is not to take a dig at anyone for what they are or are not capable of, but rather to discuss what i find to be a major cause of the problem. My biggest hate is the fact that my school teach ICT for GCSE's, and expect people to use Microsoft word. At this level I can understand that most 15 year olds are familiar with the software, and its only a small part of the ICT portfolio, so no biggy. But then I discovered from my friend who is taking A-level ICT, that they teach how to use Dreamweaver. This is definitely better than word, but the problem is they are teaching them to lay stuff out using tables. I take A-level Computing, and today the topic of HTML was introduced to the students who were slightly less familiar with it. But the problem is again that they teach us to use tables for layout, and they don't even make any attempt at mentioming CSS or div's. I completely understand that this stuff could take too long to teach properly, including CSS and web standards etc. I also realise that its down to the Examination boards to set the expectations from the course. But these methods of teaching the subject are definitely a major reason why people have no idea how to properly create their websites, and then get laughed at by people like us who have more knowledge on the subject. We need to stop teaching stuff the old fashioned way. Im finished ranting, but i just wanted to raise the subject and get an idea of other peoples views/experiences on this matter.

15-01-2008, 12:34	#2 (permalink)
djeglin goober :-) Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 533	I remember being at university in 2002 (admittedly, not on a web course, but on a media course with a web module), and them teaching web design by WYSIWYG table layouts. I didn't go back to the class, and complained to the course director, because I felt that this was a horrible state for a degree course to be in. The next year, I taught the web basics module, teaching at least html and css (not semantics etc... that could come later), for extra credit... About 26 of the 30 students in the class passed, 5 of them with 1st quality grades. Incidentally, the ones that didnt pass were the ones that didnt turn up. It took some extra work to get people to really get to grips with the stuff, but they got there in the end with a bit of help. Schools shouldn't be teaching table based, or WYSIWYG development, either. There is a serious danger that kids will learn the wrong skills, the wrong way of doing things, and expect that what they learn will be a good way of making a bit of money for themselves (I know I was designing sites for people when I was still at school!). We then head back in the direction of where we were a few years ago, when the quality of work in general is diluted by the poor work coming from these kids. Also, if they move on to try and make a career from it, they will have to try and "unlearn" everything they learned on the topic at school... What is the point in that? Schools (and examination boards) should be expected to keep up to date, just as universities are, and tailor the curriculum to the abilities that can be expected of the age group. Teaching something that is completely useless in the real world, or in higher education, should not be what school is about. __________________ My signature sucks.

15-01-2008, 12:35	#3 (permalink)
steveb 389 ppm and rising Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Järvenpää, Finland Posts: 5,367	I heard the other day that the Graphics College of Helsinki was still using Photoshop 4.0 until 2005! Teachers can only teach what they know and what the curriculum allows. It's simply not possible for a high school curriculum to keep pace with web tehnology. __________________ My free fonts www.utfi.net

15-01-2008, 15:14	#5 (permalink)
herkalees Semantics, yay. Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Salem, Massachusetts Posts: 1,146	This is precisely why I'm going to be teaching at the local university this coming summer. Proper Markup 101... __________________ Writing on markup, CSS, and other web geekery Professional, accessible, and search engine friendly web site development by Boston Web Studio

15-01-2008, 15:48	#6 (permalink)
brooks inventer of the left-hand Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Gypsyville Posts: 1,320	While I was studying my A-levels last year we did a web design unit which focused on Macromedia Dreamweaver, with the final outcome, I kid you not, being marked from a printed file. I got 94% in the unit, not because of my highly superior standards compliant mark-up but only because my design worked. The abominations people were producing made me want to puke up each lesson, it simply was not taught, we were taught how to create a layer for the overall size and then left to our own devices, the amount of people that said 'I hope my mum/friend/cousin uses this for their shop' was ridiculous. It's the same with all new-media applications such as Photography, Graphic Design and Web Design - people think they can do it when they've got the software. I just wish I could get people into the frame of mind to improve. It really bugs me with photography at the moment, after making the leap from a film to digital SLR, everyone thinks they can do it because they have the tool of the trade. It appals me, the lack of detail people know and are taught is horrible. We do need to stop teaching the old fashioned way, but we also need to teach people that it is hard work, and tell them how to improve and don't just think you are a web designer after making one website. __________________ Flickr Photos

15-01-2008, 15:49	#7 (permalink)
chaos.dave "Everybody's Dead Dave" Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Loughborough, UK Posts: 135	I have actually considered teaching it as well, if the opportunity was ever there. But it wont be this year, seen as I'm still in full time education until at least the summer.

15-01-2008, 18:41	#8 (permalink)
KrazyKel Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 40	Im on my 3rd year at uni, was doing 'digital media' then 'interactive media' and had a couple of web modules - most other modules were using Director! The web modules i found were useless, i hadnt been taught web stuff at college or school and when i came to do the web modules at uni they never taught us html css or anything. nothing about designs or layout! The one module was php which we had to do a restaurant website but all that was taught was setting up databases, adding content, dynamic tables and stuff! Didnt even learn the basics of html, others in the class may have learnt some at college etc but a lot hadnt so there really should have been more taught during the 1st years! Ive just signed up for college part time to do a web design course in the evenings while im still at uni to learn some of the 'basics' so i just hope the course will be good enough now!

15-01-2008, 19:39	#9 (permalink)
Shiro shiro Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 3,064	What you gotta realize is that the goal of these courses isn't to make a few kids good at web design, its to give all the kids a basic knowledge of how web pages are made and work, so that they can have an idea of this as they progress in life.

16-01-2008, 12:33	#10 (permalink)
website-design Best design is simple :-) Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 42	I agree with you! Nobody wants to be out of date with technology! ... When we still have a chance to learn new things we should embrace it and move forward. HTML and CSS is the way to go! ... CSS is definately making a big change... Better to learn CSS now than later :-) ... plus it saves lots of time!

03-02-2008, 17:55	#11 (permalink)
Hatch Media Hatch Media - Web Design Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 22	I can't remember one thing form my education that i actually use today... oh apart from english...

03-02-2008, 17:56	#12 (permalink)
Hatch Media Hatch Media - Web Design Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 22	Self taught and trial and error is the best way and the only way to learn

03-02-2008, 18:49	#13 (permalink)
RaelRode Designers are strange :) Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Shrewsbury, UK Posts: 1,766	On my ICT course at school, we had to use DReamweaver to lay out tables etc, and the teacher thought he was cool because he could make a table in code view. So when I showed him my validated xHTML/CSS source code with a flashy javascript navigation, not only did his jaw break through into china, but I've been left to my own devices on all the units, as well as getting to teach a bit of CSS to the class. Even though they sat there and threw pencils around the room!! __________________ Many things can be achieved in a day so long as you don't make that day tomorrow. Unknown.

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