[oli]

http://www.cssvault.com

For a site promoting css you'd think they'd sort out their own site wouldn't you, the layout messes up in ie 5.5 for lack of a box hack.

[cam]

heh, silly buggers.

good site in a decent browser though

[Bill Posters]

zero tolerance. good on 'em.

[oli]

Why good on them ?
Surely a part of a web designers job is to get a site to work in all browsers by whatever means.
Newplasicarts looks good in ie 5.5 btw

[Bill Posters]

Newplasicarts looks good in ie 5.5 btw

Is that irony or does it genuinely look ok?
S'been so long since I last looked/checked in that particular web bruiser.

-

Can't agree with the "all browsers by whatever means" bit.
Gotta draw the line somewhere.
Personally, I'd draw the line to include IE5.5, but I still admire (in some ways) those who make the concious decision not to pander to the foibles of shoddy browser development.

[oli]

No it looks fine,
I just think that a site such as css vault should make the effort to make sure it looks good in all browsers as its actually promoting css, and if someone see thats it doesnt then its sending out the wrong message.

[Stickman]

We should all make the effort - especially sites that claim to promote css.

Average idiot designer - 'but it'd work if it was in tables'
You - 'it's a shoddy browser'
Them - 'people still use it'

They win. Sites are built for people not for browsers. They're just tools and you can't expect everyone to be an expert in choosing and using these tools. That's not their job, but it's your job to present information to them - whether they are using shit browsers or not. So any issues you have with browsers shouldn't result in a poorly rendered site for the average joe just so you can make a point to Bill Gates & Friends.

Imagine mechanics did this - 'your alloy wheels are shit, so we won't change all your tyres. It's up to you to buy the alloys we like'.

sigh

All this anti-hack stuff annoys me - it's not living in the real world.
Basically, the box model hack is not hard to implement and it allows more people to see the site correctly, so there should be no hesitation.


But if we are going to draw a line, I'll be starting at IE on the mac.

[Bill Posters]

'your alloy wheels are shit, so we won't change all your tyres. It's up to you to buy the alloys we like'.

A more appropriate analogy would be:
'your alloys are square…'

I agree for thoe most part, but we too often allow the blame to fall on our shoulders because we don't inform users of bad browsers how their browser is letting them down.

Admittedly, it's not the easiest battle given the apathy of the user and the influence of MS, but it's not an issue we should be silently assuming the blame for when we are in the right.
There's nothing wrong with trying to help your users to make better informed decisions about their browsing experience.
The more the end user becomes aware that their software is letting them down, the more likely they are to put pressure on its developers - and the more likely the developer is to ix things.
PNG24 is another perfect candidate for this kind of 'affirmative action'.
Problem is, too few site developers/authors have the cajones to potentially temporarily harm the success of their own sites by digging their heels in 'for the greater good'.
Understandable to a degree, but disappointing to an even greater one.

[oli]

The average user though, will not have a clue that their MS browser is shite - they will assume it is the website that is broken as 90% of other sites all look fine in it.

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by Bill Posters

A more appropriate analogy would be:
'your alloys are square…'

I'm being picky, but I disagree. If you had square wheels, you'd know about it. They would look obviously different and driving would always be uncomfortable. IE isn't like that. It often works ok and shows no obvious signs to the average user that anything is up. This is why they don't look into installing something else.

Originally Posted by Bill Posters

too few site developers/authors have the cajones to potentially temporarily harm the success of their own sites by digging their heels in 'for the greater good'

Fair enough, but I was thinking more about clients and paid work. Obviously, it's not your decision in those cases.

[cam]

Originally Posted by oli

The average user though, will not have a clue that their MS browser is shite - they will assume it is the website that is broken as 90% of other sites all look fine in it.

so true.

[Bill Posters]

Originally Posted by Stickman

I'm being picky, but I disagree. If you had square wheels, you'd know about it.

Fair enough, but my point was to highlight that the problem/difference was a practical one rather than one of personal taste.
Perhaps the most fitting one would be that MS makes the browser equivalent of slightly oval-shaped alloys.
But anyway…

Of course, I'm speaking about idealist views. No-one wants themselves or their clients to be the first to throw themselves on the pyke.
Still, doesn't stop me resenting MS for unnecessarily placing obstacles in our way.
It's the futility of giving a damn that f*cks me off the most.

[Brown]

clown car wheels.

[Stickman]

Much better.

[sleepingfish]

Get a Mac Diesel

[Luke Redpath]

Originally Posted by oli

http://www.cssvault.com

For a site promoting css you'd think they'd sort out their own site wouldn't you, the layout messes up in ie 5.5 for lack of a box hack.

Why should they? I'm sure they know it doesn't work...but why would anybody be visiting that website in anything less than IE6?

[Luke Redpath]

Originally Posted by oli

The average user though, will not ....

...be visiting cssvault.com?

It's all about target audience. I'm sure most people here draw the browser line at NN4.x but you'd have to cater for it if you knew a large proportion of your visitors will be using it.

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by Luke Redpath

It's all about target audience.

It should be the sort of site that you can send people to when you want to promote css - it shouldn't put them off. A showcase for everyone would be nice - including average users or designers who still use tables all the time.