[OrangeCat]

I have a client now that I'm working with who has become very demanding and doesn't seem pleased with ANYTHING I do. I designed a very nice layout for her the first time around, and she basically picked everything apart and asked for a gazzilion changes. (not to mention that the changes she asked for would totally ruin the design...sigh)

Made the changes, and she's still not happy.

Keep in mind I'm giving her exactly what she asked for.

She already paid me half up front, but I don't think I'll ever see the other half. I should have known something was fishy when she said she previously worked with aother designer but she "disappeared"...and now I know why. She even showed me some of the other designer's work and it's VERY nice, yet she wasn't happy with it.

What the heck do I do here? If I terminate our arrangement I'm sure she'll file a complaint with Paypal for the first half of her money back. (despite the fact that I worked pretty damn hard for that money) and the last thing I need is my paypal account getting frozen.

But I really don't want to continue working with her. I'm willing to forfit the last half of payment if it means I can get her out of my hair.

Any suggestions? Words of wisdom?

[WD-NYC Designer]

did you sign contract agreement with here?

[steveb]

Drop the bitch. Tell her to get lost. Tell her you'll be warning other people in the industry not to accept her custom.

I had one like that last year. I did 14 revisions of a website before I said "That's all there is" and sent them my bill.

[Do Gooder]

emails never seem to resolve matters like this.

generally. its good to talk. face to face if possible. if not get them on their land line and talk it out in a friendly manner explaining that the current working relationship doesn't seem to be producing what the client wants, which is no good for both of you. Perhaps the work needs a fresh input from someone else?

If a friendly considerate approach like that doesn't work. Then wriggle out down the path of least resistance.

[rfresh]

We can always learn from our experiences. In this case what you should learn is that you need to requirements or specification type of document (contract). Developers use these all the time. The document (call it what you want) will spell out exactly how the web site will look and what it will do.

You'll want to always add a section of what is out of scope. Then you start working - if anything the client wants changed from that point on isn't in the doc, then its considered a phase II project and will get done after phase I.

Often times you have to make exceptions to this but if you stay the course most of the time you'll come out fine.

The biggest mistake you can make is just to start working of the design with no end in sight or no idea of what the final design will look like. The client can then tell you endlessly change this, change that, etc. etc. And you already know what that is like!!

For now with your client, your stuck with her - suck it up, get the job done and vow never to work like that again without a signed 'blue print'.

Good luck!!

RalphF
Home of $4.99 Hosting
GoldRushWebHosting.com

[mike_m]

How do you deal with clients that are never happy?

Every fucking day...

[OrangeCat]

Well, I told her that I'm finished redesigning the layout. Small changes are ok but I won't totally redo the entire thing anymore.

I expect she won't be happy.

[pgo]

That's her problem. You're working, she owes you money.

Next time write a very clear contract that says "You get this many revisions. Any more than X number of revisions will increase the project estimate."

Also, don't work through PayPal - ever.

[OrangeCat]

What else should I use if not paypal? I work with a lot of clients that are not located near me so I can't meet up and get payment that way.

[OrangeCat]

She says she going to contact paypal for a refund. How do I handle this? I feel I earned that first payment and it's unfair for her to expect it back. I also cannot have my paypal account frozen as it's my main source of payments for my clients right now, and I cannot really afford to have the money taken out.

Help please?

[pgo]

One thing you might do, depending on how much money is involved, is contact a lawyer instead of people on a forum. This is what lawyers are for.

Of course, if you don't have a written and signed contract, you probably have no legal recourse and she can just take her money back. And PayPal won't care - they're not a bank. They don't have to follow any banking laws and they aren't insured by the government.

There's a reason no real company uses PayPal. OK, maybe to process credit cards, but that's it. If a prospective client contacted me and insisted on using PayPal, I'd drop them faster than you can say "scam".

Use checks or bank transfers. Paper trails are important. And get some local clients - and use a contract. And definitely name and shame the client if they take your money so others can avoid this mess.

You could go in and take out all your money right now and then make your way through the PayPal arbitration process.

[OrangeCat]

You could go in and take out all your money right now and then make your way through the PayPal arbitration process.

What is the arbitration process? I just transfered all the money to my checking account last night (before I even knew this would happen) but I'm worried that they'll take the money out of my checking account or my credit card since there's nothing left in paypal.

Will paypal automatically give her the money back without even checking for my side of the story? If I remove my checking account won't that look suspicious? I just really want to get this taken care of without loosing the money I earned, but also without loosing the paypal account.

Now I know why using paypal isn't a good idea. Just takes one crazy client to mess it all up.

I can't afford a lawyer for this, I'm just a small fish in an even smaller pond I don't make a ton doing this, and I don't think the amount isn't even big enough to warrent a lawyer (under $1000).

[neka]

This is why contracts and doing things face to face are lot more fun and easier. You can hold the contract up with one hand, and your middle finger up with the other.

[hawken]

if she makes a complaint about your paypal account, it's highly likely they will freeze your account

[Nik Manning]

OrangeCat I hope everything works out. Next time you might want to fax them a contract. And have them sign it and fax it back. And I understand why you use paypal. She just seems like she is the problem not you or paypal.

[digipaint]

Originally Posted by hawken

if she makes a complaint about your paypal account, it's highly likely they will freeze your account

Yep they will, i had a similar situation but with an ebay sale, the guy said he never recieved an item i sent, he chose to have it sent the cheapest way (not recorded) then said he didn't recieve it and they re-funded him all the money. I had a reciept for the postage but that wasn't good enough.

They froze my account and just took the money out of my bank account.

In my experience they TOTALY sided with the payer, and said it was up to me to cover my arse, i learned my lesson and if i sell anything now i insist they have to pay for recorded delivery.

[freelancr]

Paypal are cunts, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[JP]

i have a feeling i have 1 of those customers now, its taking up loads of my time with designs ect.

[jckpalmer]

Speaking from recent experience here it's clear there should be a nice guide to contracting...?

Firstly most of the replies here are right. LOL. So what do you do in these sticky situations?

When first approached by a client make it clear to them that you are the designer, they are the client. You would go to a builder ask him to build you a wall then go out there poking at the wall saying, "That's not how I would have built it, I want the wal like this"...etc...

We are the designers, make sure your relationship is like this from the start, outline the budget, timescales and scope of the project, without these three things its not a "Project" but an employment.

Once these factors have been established draft a service agreement, you will provide a "service" for a "fee", once that "service" has been fulfilled, the "fee" is payable. A service level agreement is a legally binding contract and once signed will stand up in court. Both parties must agree the terms.

In your SLA you lay out your commitments to the customer within the Budget, Timescale and Scope of the project. I at this point stagger payments to cover myself.

TOTAL VALUE OF PROJECT AGREED FIRST THEN SPLIT AND CHARGED BEFORE EACH PHASE LIKE SO:

Phase 1 - Design = 1/3rd of budget

Phase 2 - Hosting and Development = 1/3 of budget

Phase 3 - Testing / minor changes (non layout) = Final 3rd.

At each stage you show your client and they sign to agree they are happy. Then and only then you move to the next phase. If you are stuck in any phase due to customers not being happy, you recharge the phase, adding 1 3rd to the project value. I'd be happy to do 20 redesigns if they were worth £300 of a total £1000 project!

Add money on to the project for changes, additions, redesigns, movement of scope, movement of time and basically anything that means you need to work harder than originally agreed, at each CHANGE modify and resign the SLA!!!

If you client is saying they don't like the designs and won't pay for a redesign at this point you would have taken 1/3rd and won't care. If they want a redesign use this line that's always worked for me, "In my professional and experienced opinion the designs I have given you are the best available, if you choose to go against my decision fine, give me the designs you want me to copy and I'll move to phase 2, else I'll have to recharge phase 1. I can always copy designs for you but be warned I might not put those designs on my portfolio if they aren't to my high standards".

Usually they take your word for it, adjust your designs slightly and go ahead to phase 2.

---------------

In your particular case OrangeCat, there isn't much you can do, give her her money back, it has cost you time and effort but you have learned a valuable lesson, NEVER work unless you have clearly marked out your boundaries first in writing!!!

Also re: PayPal, using PayPal is fine as long as you don't rely on it, also if I was you and I was using PayPal, I would ensure that you name Phase 1 - Design / Prototyping, that way you can always suggest there was no intention to build the designs and you were merely providing a design service which you were paid for.

(Is it not also Law in the US to use Email as evidence in cases like this? I think as long as you have emails showing whats gone on and provide PayPal a detailed report you should be fine.)

GOOD LUCK!!

[brendan hart]

Emails can be used as evidence?

They cant over here, but on the news you always hear them going on about how people are receiving emails from suspected terrorists, holding them in custody, which i think is crap because if i wanted, I could create a mail server and put any start and ending on an email address. In my country they cant but the police bend the rules when they want to.