[dorian]

I do not think there is any point in discussing who is the [i:9727e89118]best[/i:9727e89118] designer!
Think about it.
You want to MEASURE creativity? Eh?
It's like discussing who's the best musician or band out there... would you use Top of the Pops as an indicator?
Craftmanship can be compared - and there is many brilliant craftsmen out there... but that's not what I think you are trying to do...
Well (to quote Marko) "that's my 2 cents"...
(shall I start calling myself 'conversation-stopper?)

[Stickman]

[quote:3f3c37a41f="dorian"]I do not think there is any point in discussing who is the [i:3f3c37a41f]best[/i:3f3c37a41f] designer![/quote:3f3c37a41f]
I see where you're coming from, but the discussion is really asking people who their [i:3f3c37a41f]favourite [/i:3f3c37a41f]designer is (i.e. - the best in their opinion).

P.S. - Also, people do discuss which band/singer/guitarist is the best all the time, though TOTP has nothing to do with that.

[dorian]

Still, I disagree with the fact that an individual makes such a decision in the first place I don't think it's the right approach. There are peolpe I admire - but I don't go as far as saying they are my 'favourite' designer!

[quote:6ce910f0a2="Stickman"]P.S. - Also, people do discuss which band/singer/guitarist is the best all the time, though TOTP has nothing to do with that. [/quote:6ce910f0a2]

Although general 'rules' of aesthetics can be applied to all art disciplines... In the case of the creator - the way aesthetic values are being interpreted is still personal and therefor unique. Whether it's art, music or whatever I don't think it will be fair to discuss the 'products' with the aim to find a winner. You can discuss for the sake of it...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take people literally - but maybe I'm trying to be a little picky about the choice of words... Terminology... Categorisation.... Here we go again...

[oli]

[quote:71ac621c7f]but maybe I'm trying to be a little picky about the choice of words... Terminology... Categorisation.... Here we go again... [/quote:71ac621c7f] - lol

I have to agree with stickman on this one, everyone can have their favourite designer, same way people can have a favourite artist. - I think all designers develop an individual style which is one of the things that distinguishes an artist, so .. are we really artists and not designers ?

[dorian]

No! Design is [i:be035f3fdf]not[/i:be035f3fdf] art.... Design is the skill of Visual Communication!
It's a balance between visuals and logic... and then it's just a matter of combinations Where is the art if the Client has the final word? ...And he is influenced by competition, trends, commerce, weather, etc - the list could be long... You could say that it's the art of interpretation - but when you dont have full artistic freedom then it's not good enough for me. But then if you do - then you got an exception Happend to me [i:be035f3fdf]once[/i:be035f3fdf]! I'm a lucky bastard...
Of course, people can have their 'favourite'... but that's only untill somebody else ('better'!) comes along - and then what? The 'favourite' gets replaced? I can agree with 'favourites' but not a crown for the 'best'. There is no such thing...
What do you do if one of you fav artists releases a crap album (that you just can't admit to yourself that it's 'crap')?
a) Blindly embrace it as another masterpiece?
b) Respectfully accept the fact that you don't understand the aesthetics behind it?
c) Your opinion about the artist goes... down?

[oli]

Not all design is done for clients , I have done many pieces just playing around , also on your own personal site you have full artistic freedom; is that still not art ?
What about pictures created in Photoshop, for example, I have seen some beautifull designs that I would definately consider as art.

On your other point, obviously your favourite will not be so for ever, some of my favourite musicians from years ago now make me cringe !

[Stickman]

[quote:89fb7f5418="oli"]I have to agree with stickman on this one[/quote:89fb7f5418]When don't you?


dorian - you're going a bit nuts

Firstly design isn't just visual communication. Web design, for example, is also about the planning, structure, implementation of standards and coding of the page; all of which hide behind the visuals that communicate to the user.
Likewise - car design isn't just about making a visual statement; its about creating a body that can house all of the working parts, be streamlined, meet regulations [i:89fb7f5418]and[/i:89fb7f5418] look good.

[quote:89fb7f5418="dorian"]
Of course, people can have their 'favourite'... but that's only untill somebody else ('better'!) comes along - and then what? The 'favourite' gets replaced?[/quote:89fb7f5418]There's nothing wrong with a favourite being replaced. Making decisions, forming opinions, changing their minds is what people do all the time.

[quote:89fb7f5418="dorian"]
I can agree with 'favourites' but not a crown for the 'best'. There is no such thing... [/quote:89fb7f5418]
That's the whole point of the debate. Its a chance for people to put forward the case for some designer being the best - its just opinions, if there was a clear winner there would be no point to discussing it. Anyway, unfortunately no-one's going to get a crown.

[quote:89fb7f5418="dorian"]What do you do if one of you fav artists releases a crap album[/quote:89fb7f5418]You say 'oh well, that's a bit disappointing. I like his other stuff but this is shite'.

[dorian]

Oli:
My personal site: it is not art - it is pure visual communication (and I'm not talking about the content... ...as I don't want to.
The stuff that Jacob Nielsen is raving about is designer's disrespect of the average logical process that's happening during reading / decoding visual messages. "Learn the rules so you can break them properly" is very appropriate!
Thinking about it - I guess a site can probably become art if it is at the back of your head while designing. But is art not about feelings? (sounds tacky, I know, but...) you wouldn't put feelings into a site you are doing for Sainsburys? would you? You can get 110% engaged in the project - but feelings? Apparently we are supposed to keep those outside... So yeah, if it is ment to be 'art' I'll accept it as 'art' (accept - not necessarily agree).
I think it's easy to see if there is feelings involved... if you can see that they are there - feel free to call it art And that's the difference between 'real' and 'fake' art too

[quote:8483c3800f="oli"]On your other point, obviously your favourite will not be so for ever, some of my favourite musicians from years ago now make me cringe ! [/quote:8483c3800f]

That sound like a nice forum topic for the music section: Confess there ! Can't believe I liked Phill Collins once!!!

[dorian]

[quote:da37af8cb6="Stickman"]
dorian - you're going a bit nuts

Firstly design isn't just visual communication. Web design, for example, is also about the planning, structure, implementation of standards and coding of the page; all of which hide behind the visuals that communicate to the user.
Likewise - car design isn't just about making a visual statement; its about creating a body that can house all of the working parts, be streamlined, meet regulations [i:da37af8cb6]and[/i:da37af8cb6] look good. [/quote:da37af8cb6]

No I'm not I realise this is a debate - I'm just promoting purist points of view

I was talking about the graphic side of web design -sorry, should have made that clear. Sure, it's all the right ingredients - the right proportions (and the right compromises but in the end of the day the viewer is sitting in front of a GUI... right? the effectiveness of that is a balance between technology and solid user-focussed logic (also applied in graphics).

[Ro]

art(n) : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination esp. in the production of aesthetic objects...

Graphic Design is an art. Even if you don't have full creative freedom, and have to experience the horror of unorginal client ideas, it is still the expression of an idea in a visual format. The same is true concerning the many fields of the arts ,say painting for example. A lot of the masters of the medium, Devincci, Van Gogh, etc. where commisioned by rich patrons to produce art for their homes in exchange for a place to stay, goods, funds, etc. Hehe, client work as has been around for awhile. And while all premonitions on how a thing should and should not look may not be as novel as the next fella, however I don't believe it delegitimizes the art aspect of it. Ha, that's all I got...

[dorian]

We are going round in circles here...
I will let you get back to the subject - last comment about this from me - (otherwise let's open a new topic for discussing definitions...)

There are different definitions of what art is... however, generally speaking, it's about expressing thoughts, feelings, telling the world what's laying on your liver (<-Polish expression, thought it would be appropriate)
Now, I'm sorry... but I don't feel I [i:4a5b104f93]express[/i:4a5b104f93] myself while designing - I am guided by the objectives set by the client. The process is pure logic to me. There is a message I have to convey in a logical clear to understand way. The designer has the freedom to be original - and that's the freedom aspect of it.
With art, there is no logic you have to follow - an artist doesn't have to care that his/her message is clear or easy to apprehend.

[Ro]

I can respect where your comin from my man. I may not agree with everything you say, but it's cool. Everyone has their own motivations for being in the 'game'. Ha, just keep designing, is what I say.

Speaking of favorite designers...the cat from www.designchapel.com is really nice. Definetly one of my favorites.

[dorian]

I am not asking people to [i:70c478f0d9]agree[/i:70c478f0d9] with me
It even wouldn't feel so nice if people just said "yeah, you're right man".
But I'm expressing my (strong?) feeling about the subject! And hope it will make people think twice... (?)

[Stickman]

... And in an effort to make you think twice, ponder the following:

[quote:97b4892c87="dorian"]Now, I'm sorry... but I don't feel I [i:97b4892c87]express[/i:97b4892c87] myself while designing - I am guided by the objectives set by the client ... The designer has the freedom to be original - and that's the freedom aspect of it.[/quote:97b4892c87]
Why is it not the art of it? You say yourself that art as an expression of feelings is only one of the available definitions, so why can't art be the way in which someone expresses themselves within boundaries as well as outside of them? When a painter paints at request (as Ro said), does this mean the resulting picture is not a piece of art? Also, if we were all guided so strongly by objectives then we would all produce the same work; i.e. there would be a right and a wrong answer to the brief.

[quote:97b4892c87="dorian"]With art, there is no logic you have to follow - an artist doesn't have to care that his/her message is clear or easy to apprehend.[/quote:97b4892c87]Designers don't always have to worry about being clear and easy to follow (see link below). It is in the nature of designing for business that you will be asked to design a clear interface for the user, more often than not. This doesn't prevent you from being artistic and therefore creating art.
An artist who paints portraits will have to care that his/her message is clear otherwise it'll look nothing like the subject, but would you tell them that they are not a true artist as they aren't letting their inner feelings guide their paintbrush?

This is a flash site designed by hi-res for a client (subaru). Is it art or design or neither? http://www.i-move-u.com/

[dorian]

[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]When a painter paints at request (as Ro said), does this mean the resulting picture is not a piece of art?[/quote:284228f1d6]
Just because a painting is a [i:284228f1d6]painting[/i:284228f1d6] it doesn't mean it's art by default. I do not want to judge what is [i:284228f1d6]'good'[/i:284228f1d6] and what is [i:284228f1d6]'bad'[/i:284228f1d6] art - coz that's where the conversation would be heading. Art critics do that for living.
(Besides I support the theory that goes: It's Art, Because I say so.)

[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]Also, if we were all guided so strongly by objectives then we would all produce the same work; i.e. there would be a right and a wrong answer to the brief.[/quote:284228f1d6]

And maybe it is so! you can have different interpretations of the same brief - and if they are all 'correct' (notice the quotations they will all include the same qualities!

[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]Designers don't always have to worry about being clear and easy to follow (see link below). It is in the nature of designing for business that you will be asked to design a clear interface for the user, more often than not. This doesn't prevent you from being artistic and therefore creating art.[/quote:284228f1d6]
see the theory I support


[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]An artist who paints portraits will have to care that his/her message is clear.[/quote:284228f1d6]
Really? this is the kind of commissions i avoid
(besides - I've done aportrait of my gf that she hates - but I think i't one of the best I ever done

[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]otherwise it'll look nothing like the subject[/quote:284228f1d6]
So?

[quote:284228f1d6="Stickman"]but would you tell them that they are not a true artist as they aren't letting their inner feelings guide their paintbrush?[/quote:284228f1d6]
If they have inner feelings that differ from what they are doing - I would strongly encourage to go in that direction - it is a very liberating feeling not to have to live up to anybody's expectations!

The site... If the people behind it label it as art - it is fine with me. If feelings were involved - and somebody got a kick out of it...

[Stickman]

Hello again dorian

[quote:5310510b1b="dorian"]Just because a painting is a painting it doesn't mean it's art by default. I do not want to judge what is 'good' and what is 'bad' art[/quote:5310510b1b]What is it then? Are you saying 'bad' art isn't art?

[quote:5310510b1b="dorian"]I've done aportrait of my gf that she hates - but I think i't one of the best I ever done[/quote:5310510b1b]"So? " Do you think this makes it better (because you weren't fulfilling a brief and were free to paint what you liked)?

[quote:5310510b1b="dorian"][quote:5310510b1b="Stickman"]otherwise it'll look nothing like the subject[/quote:5310510b1b]
So? [/quote:5310510b1b]So they will fail the brief. But if they fulfil the brief (i.e. paint what they were asked to paint not what they fancy) then according to you it wouldn't be art, although what you're saying it would be no-one knows...

[quote:5310510b1b="dorian"]The site... If the people behind it label it as art - it is fine with me. If feelings were involved - and somebody got a kick out of it...[/quote:5310510b1b]
So, if you can clearly see where someone's feelings have been expressed someone's work becomes art rather than design?

Ages ago now, Oli said designers are also artists, so I'll ask you this again:
Why can't art be the way in which someone expresses themselves within boundaries as well as outside of them?

[dorian]

[quote:7ee5945b19="Stickman"]What is it then? Are you saying 'bad' art isn't art?[/quote:7ee5945b19]
'Bad' art could sometimes be considered not [i:7ee5945b19]true[/i:7ee5945b19] art. But see the theory of art I support

[quote:7ee5945b19="Stickman"]So? " Do you think this makes it better (because you weren't fulfilling a brief and were free to paint what you liked)?[/quote:7ee5945b19]
I am not not fulfilling any brief because there wasn't any in the first place. I painted what I FELT. It has value to to because I managed to capture preatty f***ing abstract thoughts in a picture! I am not saying it's 'better' - but it has great value to me because of that achievement!

[quote:7ee5945b19="Stickman"]So they will fail the brief. But if they fulfil the brief (i.e. paint what they were asked to paint not what they fancy) then according to you it wouldn't be art, although what you're saying it would be no-one knows...[/quote:7ee5945b19]
If the 'heart' is somewhere else then not. It really depends on how people feel about it... An artist can be well satisfied with the outcome from a technical/skill point of wiev only. But the best one to ask (really) would be the artist himself! (!?!) People have different needs. Some people paint pretty landscapes, hang it on the walls at home - and they are Artists in the eyes of their family and relatives - while they could be completely ignored by the authorities of the so-called 'art world'. For my opinion see again the theory I support :p

[quote:7ee5945b19="Stickman"]Why can't art be the way in which someone expresses themselves within boundaries as well as outside of them?[/quote:7ee5945b19]
Even a 'free' artist has boundries such as: scale, finances, physical limitations... that is enough, man at least for me... Also notice, that there is a term Art & Design (-AND-)!
(you know it's quite funny to write and think about what parts you'll pick up on... lol... I enjoy that

[smallbeer]

I like Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen.

The magic he worked on that back-to-back in Bogner Regis last week was definitely art.

hth.

[sleepingfish]

the man is a living legend, and i think that is reflected in his dress sense as well as his design work