Web Design Forums

BenSky · 04-11-2006, 16:54

What exactly do people find wrong with using tables for layout in web design?

mrdoob · 04-11-2006, 17:32

Using tables is something the humans did wrong when they started to create websites. Tables are not for layout of the design. Tables are for doing... tables!

Data tables, the ones for the train, for prizes.. Just for that.

To see easier what's the problem of tables you have to think about a reader for blind people. If one of those people goes to a table won't have any idea where to start from, what's the important information, in result, it won't be able to say anything coherent to the (blind) user.

You may think, but I don't care if my website is compatible with those systems. Yeah, I can understand it but, that's just an example. Doing a website using DIVs and CSS will make the code MUCH more clean, and easy to maintain, will be also much more compatible and easier to tweak a bit so it works everywhere. Tables are just a nightmare. Also, whenever you do your first website with DIVs+CSS you may think it's painful, but the next one will be piece of cake. Just save the template and reuse. It will also help you to sort the information.

Well, hope it helps

nethawk · 04-11-2006, 17:49

I agree wholeheartedly and that's why I ask you to invest all of your time in developing a program that generates CSS code automatically for us visual designers.

mrdoob · 04-11-2006, 17:50

Doesn't dreamweaver does this already? Maybe isn't too intuitive. Uhm.. interesting

freelancr · 04-11-2006, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by nethawk

I agree wholeheartedly and that's why I ask you to invest all of your time in developing a program that generates CSS code automatically for us visual designers.

html and css is about as basic as coding gets

nethawk · 04-11-2006, 18:04

How about developing an HTML or CSS book that doesn't put me to sleep then?

Kidding...

pgo · 04-11-2006, 18:52

If you're not going to learn at least HTML and CSS and how to do web design properly, then go be a print monkey. Simple as that.

All the "I'm a visual designer" or right brain vs. left brain stuff is an excuse cooked up by people too lazy to take a little initiative and learn something.

As far as the tables thing, we've been over this and over this for the last 5 years. How are people still asking this???

dSlifer · 04-11-2006, 18:57

I'm going through the CSS instructions from Lynda.com right now, but it is sort of boring. I know HTML pretty well, and would like to learn CSS to at least complete that package, since I believe the two of them go together all the time now.

Dreamweaver sort of does have a visual editor for CSS, you can actually look at a window for CSS Properties of your site, but mostly that's alinks and titles, mostly textual things. As far as visually developing your site, Dreamweaver still uses tables, maybe the 9th edition (and being developed by Adobe) will push it more toward the CSS side.

datahound · 04-11-2006, 19:20

Dreamweaver has the ability to make tables, the user defines how they are used.

If you want to be a web designer you cannot rely on WYSIWYG, you have to understand the code too.

5P4C3 · 04-11-2006, 21:31

Dreamweaver sucks

nethawk · 04-11-2006, 23:39

Quote:

All the "I'm a visual designer" or right brain vs. left brain stuff is an excuse cooked up by people too lazy to take a little initiative and learn something.

I know a guy who's been building websites for twelve years with code and you know what? My very first site kicks his ass in terms of visuals. I wonder what Left/Right brain excuse he's using to avoid learning how to make his pages visually pleasing. Tables turn both ways.

And yes, I am learning HTML - in between taking Wake-ups. Yawn...

mrdoob · 05-11-2006, 06:49

Yeah, but good taste/creativity isn't something you can 'learn' as easier as HTML/CSS :P

5P4C3 · 05-11-2006, 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nethawk

I know a guy who's been building websites for twelve years with code and you know what? My very first site kicks his ass in terms of visuals. I wonder what Left/Right brain excuse he's using to avoid learning how to make his pages visually pleasing. Tables turn both ways.

And yes, I am learning HTML - in between taking Wake-ups. Yawn...

Well everybody cant be good at designing. And if your site "kicks his as visually" give us examples of his web-designs and yours.

gray · 05-11-2006, 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5P4C3

Dreamweaver sucks

false.

d*d · 05-11-2006, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by nethawk

My very first site kicks his ass in terms of visuals.

I've noticed that by and large people who say their designs are 'kick ass' or just generally go on about how great they are at design - aren't.

Dusteh · 05-11-2006, 10:09

The standard of this forum is going downhill, and thats saying something :p

nethawk · 05-11-2006, 10:14

I'm just hoping that Adobe is going to churn out a next gen Dreamweaver product that's as friendly to designers as it is to developers - and for god's sake something where you can just drag and drop rather than having to deal with all the stupid formatting. If you could choose in advance what browsers you wish to be compatible with rather than checking afterwards and making rectifications, half of the problem would be solved right there.

BenSky · 05-11-2006, 11:41

i have used divs before, do you mean positioning them using css with the absolute property?
I read to avoid this as it displays differently in different browsers?

chris_bcn · 05-11-2006, 13:26

It's the end of 2006 - are we really still having this discussion?

Actually I don't mind too much - the more muppets who believe that they kick -ass visually rarely climb above mediocre and any web designer who doesn't know how to code means less competition for those who know how to do the job, and take pride in it.

If you want to be a web designer learn how to code properly or stop charging people good money for your ill-concieved, bloated rubbish

nethawk · 05-11-2006, 19:00

04-11-2006, 16:54	#1 (permalink)
BenSky Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Leeds Posts: 97	Use of tables in web design What exactly do people find wrong with using tables for layout in web design?

04-11-2006, 19:20	#9 (permalink)
datahound Spare Parts Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bracknell Forest Posts: 5,131	Dreamweaver has the ability to make tables, the user defines how they are used. If you want to be a web designer you cannot rely on WYSIWYG, you have to understand the code too. __________________ poochmedia \| Computer Spare Parts \| Computer & Telephone Disposals

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04-11-2006, 17:32	#2 (permalink)
mrdoob Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London Posts: 23	Using tables is something the humans did wrong when they started to create websites. Tables are not for layout of the design. Tables are for doing... tables! Data tables, the ones for the train, for prizes.. Just for that. To see easier what's the problem of tables you have to think about a reader for blind people. If one of those people goes to a table won't have any idea where to start from, what's the important information, in result, it won't be able to say anything coherent to the (blind) user. You may think, but I don't care if my website is compatible with those systems. Yeah, I can understand it but, that's just an example. Doing a website using DIVs and CSS will make the code MUCH more clean, and easy to maintain, will be also much more compatible and easier to tweak a bit so it works everywhere. Tables are just a nightmare. Also, whenever you do your first website with DIVs+CSS you may think it's painful, but the next one will be piece of cake. Just save the template and reuse. It will also help you to sort the information. Well, hope it helps

04-11-2006, 17:49	#3 (permalink)
nethawk Nethawk Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pretty mobile. Earth (generally) Posts: 63	I agree wholeheartedly and that's why I ask you to invest all of your time in developing a program that generates CSS code automatically for us visual designers.

04-11-2006, 17:50	#4 (permalink)
mrdoob Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London Posts: 23	Doesn't dreamweaver does this already? Maybe isn't too intuitive. Uhm.. interesting

04-11-2006, 18:04	#6 (permalink)
nethawk Nethawk Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pretty mobile. Earth (generally) Posts: 63	How about developing an HTML or CSS book that doesn't put me to sleep then? Kidding...

04-11-2006, 18:52	#7 (permalink)
pgo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 12,340	If you're not going to learn at least HTML and CSS and how to do web design properly, then go be a print monkey. Simple as that. All the "I'm a visual designer" or right brain vs. left brain stuff is an excuse cooked up by people too lazy to take a little initiative and learn something. As far as the tables thing, we've been over this and over this for the last 5 years. How are people still asking this???

04-11-2006, 18:57	#8 (permalink)
dSlifer Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 30	I'm going through the CSS instructions from Lynda.com right now, but it is sort of boring. I know HTML pretty well, and would like to learn CSS to at least complete that package, since I believe the two of them go together all the time now. Dreamweaver sort of does have a visual editor for CSS, you can actually look at a window for CSS Properties of your site, but mostly that's alinks and titles, mostly textual things. As far as visually developing your site, Dreamweaver still uses tables, maybe the 9th edition (and being developed by Adobe) will push it more toward the CSS side.

04-11-2006, 21:31	#10 (permalink)
5P4C3 Deathblow Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 354	Dreamweaver sucks

05-11-2006, 06:49	#12 (permalink)
mrdoob Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London Posts: 23	Yeah, but good taste/creativity isn't something you can 'learn' as easier as HTML/CSS :P

05-11-2006, 10:09	#16 (permalink)
Dusteh Sir digby chicken caesar Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 5,378	The standard of this forum is going downhill, and thats saying something :p

05-11-2006, 10:14	#17 (permalink)
nethawk Nethawk Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pretty mobile. Earth (generally) Posts: 63	I'm just hoping that Adobe is going to churn out a next gen Dreamweaver product that's as friendly to designers as it is to developers - and for god's sake something where you can just drag and drop rather than having to deal with all the stupid formatting. If you could choose in advance what browsers you wish to be compatible with rather than checking afterwards and making rectifications, half of the problem would be solved right there.

05-11-2006, 11:41	#18 (permalink)
BenSky Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Leeds Posts: 97	i have used divs before, do you mean positioning them using css with the absolute property? I read to avoid this as it displays differently in different browsers?

05-11-2006, 13:26	#19 (permalink)
chris_bcn Goodbye little old lady Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Geordie in SF Posts: 340	It's the end of 2006 - are we really still having this discussion? Actually I don't mind too much - the more muppets who believe that they kick -ass visually rarely climb above mediocre and any web designer who doesn't know how to code means less competition for those who know how to do the job, and take pride in it. If you want to be a web designer learn how to code properly or stop charging people good money for your ill-concieved, bloated rubbish

05-11-2006, 19:00	#20 (permalink)
nethawk Nethawk Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pretty mobile. Earth (generally) Posts: 63

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