[another™]

wikipædio.

[ELCIV]

...talent and flair are a definite bonus, although school puts you ahead in the game

[Megaton Cat]

Does Good folio + Foundations course mean better to employers then simply Good folio? I'm doing an Art/Design foundations to bring my art skillz and concept work up, but I shiver every time I have to think about spending another 3 years after that just studying graphic design.

Dunno. Loads of shit can happen in 3 years. They might grow a highly intellectual species of plants that would do all the design work for us.

degree has opened my eyes to how naiive untrained desingers can be, simple things like type rules and semiotics that would have escaped me (and did) before we had training

I thought of that too but...kinda funny then how many designers trained in these exotic disciplines still produce shitcock work though.

[pgo]

Originally Posted by another™

wikipædio.

While Wikipedia is great for getting a general sense of things, it can't be trusted completely. Any self-respecting academic institution would not allow Wikipedia as a research reference.

[hello]

I don't think that poll is fair. Really you want both! You may have all the talent in the world but not be able to handle working processes that you should learn whilst doing your degree.

[Paul Freeman]

I employ people in a number of capacities and have been doing so for quite a few years.

Talent is more important than formal qualifications to me, no question... however those people who are both talented, and who can talk intelligently about why they do what they do have an edge. A solid grounding in the theory behind art, design, photography, programming whatever adds flexibility and control to the raw talent.

In my own case I did a masters in photography part time. It was an invaluable experience giving me a grounding in art history and its relationship to photography. Because it was part time, it fitted in well with my freelance committments. It didn't really cost much to do either... about the same in fees each year as a new laptop.

You can have your cake and eat it.

[Maerk]

Originally Posted by hello

I don't think that poll is fair. Really you want both! You may have all the talent in the world but not be able to handle working processes that you should learn whilst doing your degree.

I'd argue whilst both are good, you get taught working practices that much faster in a work environment dropped in the deep end, and I've come across design students (not saying all by a long shot - don't lynch me ) completely unaware of working practices as a whole - but then it's a grey area, working practices vary between agencies, printers, clients and designers. You just need to be able to think on your feet really.

[JP]

if you see that he is good at what he dose and his work is good, why not?!, just cos he hasnt got a piece of paper to say he can't do it.

[Dusteh]

Lucky I've got both

[top_buzz]

I don't have a degree and im doing fine

[tomr2006]

A mixture of both is ideal, although if you're really talented a good portfolio will be enough in most cases to land you a good job. If you're borderline however, you'll be down the pecking order a bit if you don't have any form of degree.

[freelancr]

The problem is a lot of recruitment is carried out by Human Resources/Management/Agencies and they may not be able to tell the difference between the quality of work in one portfolio, and quality from another. You know what clients are like, you make 2 designs and they will pick the one you don't like, or you will get some clients wanting you to change the design to suit their ideas. Everyone thinks they know what looks good, but not everyone has taste.

Also another brickwall you may come across is the actual job advert will say that you need to be educated to a degree level, or hold a relevant degree to the job. Even a lot of junior positions even say they are looking for a university graduate. So with this, even if you apply and show willing, they most likely won't bother to interview you.

A degree may not be as important for the design side of things, but for the development side you often find you won't even get an interview unless you have a degree. Also it is impossible for someone to tell the difference between the quality of your server side coding, and someone elses, just by giving them a few links to websites you have made.

Just think of it this way:
If you come up against someone who has both portfolio and degree, unless your work is shit hot - you probably won't get the job. If you come up against someone who just as a degree, you may get lucky. Obviously there are more than 2 people applying for jobs, so in reality, you haven't got much chance of coming up against someone who doesn't have a degree.

I realise this thread is old, but worth answering.

[CherryKeri]

I think the poll lacks the third choice "it depends", as it really does. There are many awesome web designers out there without any formal design education, and there are such with a degree. The problem with such quickly developing industry as web design is that it's hard for professors to catch up with it, and therefore most of the courses are dry and boring.

[stupid dog]

A degree is more or less a CYA for a company looking to hire. Easier to sell to top management that this is a good candidate because he has a degree, and other equaly qualified candidate doesn't.

But, given the socialist agenda at least at uni's here in the USA, you're really not getting too much of a 'real world' education any more - just alot of propaganda, so I'm not sure if that will help anyone in the real world - maybe if you just want to stay in college your whole life....

[print.Action]

Sorry for this being so long, but here is my essay LOL.

A degree isn't about status. I would hope your university could provide more for you through it's education process than a piece of paper. Many of the designers on here design layouts based on what they have seen on the web, and what they feel looks professional. Not many of them know the history of the grid system, or for an even bigger matter, the history modern design and typography. They imitate what they see on the web and try to make something that looks as good. While this makes you good at your craft, they won't understand the essence of design beyond web, which makes them pretty one dimensional.

It's sad to meet someone who call themselves a designer and you can't have a discussion with them about what the reincarnation of the constructivist movement has done to pop design today. Mainly because they don't no the reason for the movement, how and why it came about, what kind of works fall under the movement, or any of the artists that were involved in it. "Lissitzky? Rodchenko? WTF? It just looks like pop punk art from last decade...because I don't know anything."

I can tell you a simple fact that depending on how good of a school you go to, learning through college can be the most inexpensive and least time consuming way to learn what you want and need. I have served three internships, one in print design, one in web design, and one in exhibit design. All of my senior designers(Pat Fallon having been one) tell me that learning as much as I can in school is the best way to go. Having to learn more during your career hacks your time up and costs a LOT of money.

And NO, you can't learn the history of modern design for free on the internet. It takes a Socratic approach to even touch the bases. It takes all sources from books, to slides, to gallery visits, to hours of discussion to be able to learn it and apply it to your craft, because you pick up the values in design that you believe to be true, and that's when you find your style and philosophy.

If your happy with doing what everyone else is doing in web design, and you like web design enough to make a 40 year career out of it then you may not need a degree, these forums should do it. But if you want to make it in print design, REAL PRINT DESIGN, and want to know how to package for WOff printing, or exhibit design etc...I would HIGHLY recommend at least a BA.

[sub]

What a crock of shit, imo.
How long have you been working in the design industry? How can you comment on the abilities of designers with or without a degree when you're only 21 and still at school?

if you want to make it in print design, REAL PRINT DESIGN, and want to know how to package for WOff printing, or exhibit design etc...I would HIGHLY recommend at least a BA.

Agencies all over the world offer traineeships which provide valuable experience with the benefit of mentoring. In most cases working on live projects with real deadlines and actual business objectives can be more educational and rewarding than any school can offer.

[print.Action]

I can't, but the people I have worked for and with can. I'm not saying that it's impossible to make it without a degree. But if you're going up against candidates who do have them from good schools, your chance is greatly reduced at that agency, barring EXTRAORDINARY design talent, Which most people don't have. The number of people with degrees compared to the number of people with enough talent to compensate for not having a degree is much higher, therefore it is RECOMMENDED, nowhere did I say it was required. My school is known all over the U.S. and even internationally for it's exhibit design program, and we have designers at many top agencies including Freeman, Skyline, GES, Czarnowski, Mauk, PurePartner, Derse, the list goes on. Many of them became senior designers within 3 years, and have won many awards by companies like exhibitor magazine. They all have our degree. weird. I don't see many award winning designers without some type of comparable formal training.

[sub]

The point being that a degree doesn't make you a good employee.
And, an award doesn't make you a good designer.

[print.Action]

Correct, but being a good designer gets you awards. I guess what my point is is that you cant get a college education or formal training(which can include the traineeships) by yourself, and in many disciplines it helps immensely, especially the history and art side of it. It just depends on what you feel success is.

My idea of the two sides of this debate are:

the untrained freelancer who gets small jobs and can pay the bills, and whose web sites look just like every other web site out there, but are professional and please clients.

the graduate working at a creative firm winning awards along with the firm and making creative history in any discipline. Speaking at design seminars, presenting at schools, setting design fashion trends etc...

A good portfolio will help big time at a firm, but firms like Fallon, Larsen, Flying Machine, PUSH, and so on require at least 4 years formal training.

[stupid dog]

people considered people like Warhol to be an artist, and he was just a hack. Sometimes I wonder if some 'artists' use thier college education as crutch, because, in reality, they have as much artistic ablity as my cat. Oh, they sit down and entertain you with some long history lesson of art movements, but in the end, they paint some soup cans or splatter some paint on a canvas....