Web Design Forums

superstoffe · 10-10-2005, 13:48

Hehe, ye .. we wont get anything out of this anyway. So just lets say we disagree and move on

My bad, should have been quiet from the start instead

pgo · 11-10-2005, 04:06

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Originally Posted by menace

People seem to have forgotten talent in this industry these days. All you need to be able to do is code with compliant XHTML/CSS and talk marketing bollox and that cuts it. Well sorry, but as you say, it'll be better when talented people DO beat the blaggers at their own game. See previous reply in other thread

You're right. It will be better when good graphic designers are also good web designers - who focus on good, accessible, usable, search engine friendly sites - the sorts of things that Blue Flavor does. Many do and I applaud them for it.

But graphic design (that is what you're ranting about, right?) talent isn't everything.

Most businesses want a well designed site, but they're more concerned with "marketing bollox" than classy, high-end design. They want to attract people, they want accessibility, they want a ROI. Good businesses are interested in their bottom line. So, marketing is their number one concern - even if you think it's bollocks.

And, in terms of business websites, isn't design - from branding to web design - simply another form of marketing - an extension of marketing?

In my opinion, that "marketing bollox" - even though the term "marketing" never once appears on the site in question - is the web designer's job. It's what's important to the client, you work for the client, it should be important to you, too. If clients aren't seeing tangible benefits (increased customer awareness, increased sales, etc), then the designer isn't doing his/her job.

A pretty website is useless to a business if it's not making them money.

And, on the subject of free speech, yes, you have every right to make wild accussations about "self-described web marketing evangelists" (wherever that's coming from...I'm still confused on that one). And you all have every right to be nasty to me.

But no one's going to listen to you if you act like children. And free speech is useless when your opinions aren't supported by anything - no one listens to senseless ranting.

Stickman · 11-10-2005, 06:09

The new bill.

menace · 11-10-2005, 06:40

I think if you're going to call people with opinions 'whiny jealous bitches' just because you don't happen to agree with them, then you'll get all the nastyness you deserve. Don't play the victim if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head.

Putting words into my mouth isn't going to inspire any diplomatic debate. My issue with companies like 'Blue Flavor' is exactly what it says on their website - defining customer needs before when the customer doesn't even know what they want (WTF?), $2,000 per page reviews of other agencies work (Hmmm), content strategy, interaction solutions, Web analysis, etc. They don't seem to do much designing, developing or any grunt work... they simply run around blabbering about how experienced they are, pontificating about their areas of 'expertise' in a infant industry and, worst of all, think that they're expert enough to do audits on existing websites designed/developed by other people. Concerning the latter, you'd BETTER know what you're talking about to offer that kind of a service!

You seem to have mistaken my opinion seem for 'if it's not a shit-hot design, then it's nothing'. That's not the case at all. I'm more than aware of the importance of standards, universality, ROI and value... but if you can't offer the whole package then I'm sorry... I just think that your credibility comes into question. People who can't design sites properly shouldn't be running around bad-mouthing those who can to vulnerable clients. Otherwise we end up with a load of shitty blog-like corporate sites.

pgo · 11-10-2005, 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by menace

Don't play the victim if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head.

I guess this is a good example of keeping a civil tongue then...

Quote:

Originally Posted by menace

Seriously... these self-proclaimed Web marketing evangelists piss me off. Bunch of parasitic c**ts.

Don't tell me about keeping a civil tongue when you're the one who started with the venom.

I'm not going to go on with this, except to say that if you read their bios, they have very impressive experience with top-notch companies and I would be willing to venture a guess that they have more than enough collective experience to do web analytics - even on sites that someone else designed.

menace · 11-10-2005, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgo

Don't tell me about keeping a civil tongue when you're the one who started with the venom.

The difference is that it wasn't aimed at anyone on the forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgo

I'm not going to go on with this, except to say that if you read their bios, they have very impressive experience with top-notch companies and I would be willing to venture a guess that they have more than enough collective experience to do web analytics - even on sites that someone else designed.

Pity they have very little to show for their work. Their highly experienced Creative Director doesn't seem to have put much effort into the creative on his own site. Doesn't say much really. Between the 4 most experienced people at our place, they have more collective experience than these 4 chaps. So why don't we sell ourselves as a consultancy-focused agency? Why do we continue to design, develop and innovate instead? Why indeed... it seems like there are plenty of suckers out there willing to pay big bucks for bullshit and pay very little for what matters... the end product. To be honest, they've probably got the right idea! But my opinion remains unchanged - they're blaggers.

pgo · 11-10-2005, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by menace

The difference is that it wasn't aimed at anyone on the forum.

Oh, you're right.

I forgot about the time my mother told me, "It's an awful thing to insult someone to their face, when they can respond, but it's just fine and dandy to do it behind their back, so they can't defend themselves."

Thanks for clearing that one up!

Stickman · 11-10-2005, 09:45

So what's your point - in one line? People shouldn't criticise other people?

menace · 11-10-2005, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgo

Oh, you're right.

I forgot about the time my mother told me, "It's an awful thing to insult someone to their face, when they can respond, but it's just fine and dandy to do it behind their back, so they can't defend themselves."

Thanks for clearing that one up!

Well it's nice that your mother and I have something in common. It's a pity she never gave you the advice "Don't bother standing up for people you don't even know for the sake of an argument, son. You'll just make a tit of yourself. Remember, they're probably just expressing their opinion on something."

DJ · 12-10-2005, 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by menace

Well it's nice that your mother and I have something in common. It's a pity she never gave you the advice "Don't bother standing up for people you don't even know for the sake of an argument, son. You'll just make a tit of yourself. Remember, they're probably just expressing their opinion on something."

After checking your profile menace i'm suprised you haven't given everyone more insight into why you choose not to join us in the real world?

Free speech is great, but I think the idea behind it is to make sure voices with important matters don't go unheard, not so you can talk crap about those you're obviously jealous of.

$2000 is worth the kind of service they offer, and I can say that without even reading through the site, but I guess not every nobody understands that. Great minds think alike, but I guess the effect of that is that small minds think like other small minded people.

jase1000 · 12-10-2005, 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ

$2000 is worth the kind of service they offer, and I can say that without even reading through the site, but I guess not every nobody understands that.

Hey, wanna buy some magic beans?

Brown · 12-10-2005, 05:59

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