Web Design Forums

oli · 08-05-2003, 14:09

I have a standard contract that I give to clients that I meet, thing is - most of my work is smaller contracts for overseas work. Is it still legally binding if I email them the contract and they add their name as a sort of electonic signature?
Is there a better way of doing this other than mailing them the contract ? I dont have a fax btw and a some of my clients dont.
Cheers.

tomson · 08-05-2003, 16:40

As far as i'm aware (and someone please correct me if i'm talking shit) it is not legally binding if done the way you are suggesting.

So...What you can do is create a contract in pdf form and email it to your client, the client then prints it out and hand signs it. Its then up to him/her/it as to how they choose to return it to you. Fax is easiest - and they're not difficult to find, hell, even my local corner shop has a fax machine!

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 04:23

emails are legally binding. 100% secure

tomson · 09-05-2003, 04:49

Just checked this and if anything does go tits-up you are very unlikely to be able to file a legal complaint (ie for non compliance, failure to complete on both parties) with any success - and apparently this varies widely from country to country. So in reality your are better off making the effort and getting something in writting to cover your ass.

And dont tell me you really believe emails to be 100% secure?

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 05:31

Quote:

And dont tell me you really believe emails to be 100% secure?

well seeing as i spent 3 hours last night at a legal seminar ( ran by 3 solicitors) - i think they know slightly more than us. Dont you.

tomson · 09-05-2003, 05:50

So the legal department i work with (dealing with overseas clients on a regular basis, conducting multi million pound contracts etc etc) must have it all wrong then!!

You can believe what you like but i prefer to get my information from people i know and trust and have hands on knowledge of this issue. If you want to cover yourself - get things in writting! Simple as that.

I'd be interested as to what exacly these solicitors have been telling you - care to tell? I take it they think email is 100%??

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 06:31

Quote:

must have it all wrong then!!

must be

the solicitors were ecommerce based - all internet issues etc.

even my kid brother knows that emails are binding.

lucidcreations · 09-05-2003, 06:52

hmm, bit of a tricky one. I know text messages are legally binding becuase they are all stored on a third party machine for sometime so much so that a bloke has just divorced his wife by text.
She got loads from him and he tried to take it back but because the text was legally binding he was knackered.

I guess if you had a big team of lawyers the case would result in an e-mail being legally binding due to its recorded nature which is where all the evidence stands, but personally I get my contracts signed and faxed / posted to make sure i'm covered and the client aswell.

I guess this will become less of an issue when more people get digital signatures on e-mail.

tomson · 09-05-2003, 07:11

Quote:

... but personally I get my contracts signed and faxed / posted to make sure i'm covered and the client aswell.

Exactly my point. Anyone with an ounce of common sense should also do this. Nowhere is it written that simply by adding your name to an email you are entering in to a legally binding contract that will stand up in any court of law anywhere in the world. Even a written contract can be disputed for goddsake! And I'd really hate to have to entrust the british legal system over something like this!

The whole thing is a legal grey area and, like lucidcreations says, it will (or should, hopefully) become less of an issue in time, but until then i'd personally advise you to take another route if at all possible.

Quote:

even my kid brother knows that emails are binding.

Blind ignorance obviously runs in the family

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 07:26

i cant be bothered anymore...too tired and hungover

tomson · 09-05-2003, 07:39

Shame - you're a worthy opponent!

Maybe couple of pints at lunchtime would sort out that hangover

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 07:44

i think that is definetly the plan. I normally love a good debate ( slanging match ) but today my heart seems heavy.

tomson · 09-05-2003, 07:48

I know the feeling mate. Well, enjoy your pint or two.

oli · 09-05-2003, 11:03

lol cheers guys - I still dunno where I stand

.. Think I'll get a fax machine.

tomson · 09-05-2003, 11:07

Or some fax software for your pc?

lucidcreations · 09-05-2003, 11:59

yeah thats what i use just install winfax or something like that even better than a fax machine

Mr Fred · 09-05-2003, 12:02

well beers didn't help. more tonight i suppose

......arrrrr rose tinted stella glasses

tomson · 09-05-2003, 13:37

Quote:

well beers didn't help.

Maybe you didn't have enough? Gonna do a bit of research into this tonight - my findings may one day help mankind in ways we can only dream of!

Northernboy · 14-05-2003, 09:14

I would imagine that you would be hard pushed to pursue a serious legal claim that an email was legally binding, after all it is not an identity-secure media unless an additional layer of verification / security (such as PGP) is used, and can be spoofed with enormous ease by using anything from Outlook Express to direct SMTP spoofing.

Imagine that you send an email to your client, Dave, with a contract to pay you £10000.
His mate Phil somehow has access to his email, and thinks that your price is most reasonable and thinks it will also be a chuckle to stitch Dave up.
Phil then replies to your email in Dave's name and says "I agree unreservedly". He then permanently deletes your original message and his reply and strolls off grinning smugly at having stitched up his mate.
You receive the reply and think everything is rosy. You do the job and submit your invoice, at which point Dave hits the roof and refuses to pay.
You say he agreed, and that you have that agreement in an email.
He says he didn't and has no evidence to suggest that he ever even received your contract.

Who's right? How can you prove anything? Who has the best lawyers?

Good old pen on paper is still the prefered method, even though a similar analogy could be drawn with someone signing on their behalf with a well forged signature.
It all comes down to basically acting in good faith and being able to cover your own arse.

Email is transient, and does not neccessarily leave a permanent trail. It does not have to neccessarily be stored at any point between them and you, and is difficult to track, but at least with a signed document in your hand you have the first thing any good detective will look for - solid, physical evidence.

Just my 2p

Brooklyn · 14-05-2003, 09:24

The Answer to this question is...

http://www.verisign.com/products/class1/index.html

Digital IDs for Secure E-mail

In the physical world, you protect your written correspondence by putting it in an envelope before posting. In the online world, sending an e-mail message is like sending a postcard: it is easy to intercept and read as it travels across the Internet. Instead of risking disclosure of your private e-mails, safeguard them with a VeriSign Digital ID.

Obviously this is the US provider, for the uk, see http://www.btignite.com/uk

We use them here, and once signed, they're legally binding just as if they were a paper solution.

08-05-2003, 14:09	#1 (permalink)
oli I Call Shenanigans™ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Manchester Posts: 9,664	Design contracts I have a standard contract that I give to clients that I meet, thing is - most of my work is smaller contracts for overseas work. Is it still legally binding if I email them the contract and they add their name as a sort of electonic signature? Is there a better way of doing this other than mailing them the contract ? I dont have a fax btw and a some of my clients dont. Cheers. __________________ Linked In :: Last.fm ..................

09-05-2003, 06:52	#8 (permalink)
lucidcreations Part of the 3 out of 4 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: cheshire Posts: 2,081	hmm, bit of a tricky one. I know text messages are legally binding becuase they are all stored on a third party machine for sometime so much so that a bloke has just divorced his wife by text. She got loads from him and he tried to take it back but because the text was legally binding he was knackered. I guess if you had a big team of lawyers the case would result in an e-mail being legally binding due to its recorded nature which is where all the evidence stands, but personally I get my contracts signed and faxed / posted to make sure i'm covered and the client aswell. I guess this will become less of an issue when more people get digital signatures on e-mail. __________________ Jase

09-05-2003, 11:03	#14 (permalink)
oli I Call Shenanigans™ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Manchester Posts: 9,664	lol cheers guys - I still dunno where I stand .. Think I'll get a fax machine. __________________ Linked In :: Last.fm ..................

09-05-2003, 11:59	#16 (permalink)
lucidcreations Part of the 3 out of 4 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: cheshire Posts: 2,081	yeah thats what i use just install winfax or something like that even better than a fax machine __________________ Jase

14-05-2003, 09:24	#20 (permalink)
Brooklyn Anarchist by Accident... Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oxfordshire UK Posts: 137	The Answer to this question is... http://www.verisign.com/products/class1/index.html Digital IDs for Secure E-mail In the physical world, you protect your written correspondence by putting it in an envelope before posting. In the online world, sending an e-mail message is like sending a postcard: it is easy to intercept and read as it travels across the Internet. Instead of risking disclosure of your private e-mails, safeguard them with a VeriSign Digital ID. Obviously this is the US provider, for the uk, see http://www.btignite.com/uk We use them here, and once signed, they're legally binding just as if they were a paper solution. Last edited by Bill Posters : 17-01-2004 at 07:09.

08-05-2003, 16:40	#2 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	As far as i'm aware (and someone please correct me if i'm talking shit) it is not legally binding if done the way you are suggesting. So...What you can do is create a contract in pdf form and email it to your client, the client then prints it out and hand signs it. Its then up to him/her/it as to how they choose to return it to you. Fax is easiest - and they're not difficult to find, hell, even my local corner shop has a fax machine!

09-05-2003, 04:23	#3 (permalink)
Mr Fred Magazines™ Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Glasgow.. Posts: 11,344	emails are legally binding. 100% secure

09-05-2003, 04:49	#4 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	Just checked this and if anything does go tits-up you are very unlikely to be able to file a legal complaint (ie for non compliance, failure to complete on both parties) with any success - and apparently this varies widely from country to country. So in reality your are better off making the effort and getting something in writting to cover your ass. And dont tell me you really believe emails to be 100% secure?

09-05-2003, 05:50	#6 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	So the legal department i work with (dealing with overseas clients on a regular basis, conducting multi million pound contracts etc etc) must have it all wrong then!! You can believe what you like but i prefer to get my information from people i know and trust and have hands on knowledge of this issue. If you want to cover yourself - get things in writting! Simple as that. I'd be interested as to what exacly these solicitors have been telling you - care to tell? I take it they think email is 100%??

09-05-2003, 07:26	#10 (permalink)
Mr Fred Magazines™ Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Glasgow.. Posts: 11,344	i cant be bothered anymore...too tired and hungover

09-05-2003, 07:39	#11 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	Shame - you're a worthy opponent! Maybe couple of pints at lunchtime would sort out that hangover

09-05-2003, 07:44	#12 (permalink)
Mr Fred Magazines™ Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Glasgow.. Posts: 11,344	i think that is definetly the plan. I normally love a good debate ( slanging match ) but today my heart seems heavy.

09-05-2003, 07:48	#13 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	I know the feeling mate. Well, enjoy your pint or two.

09-05-2003, 11:07	#15 (permalink)
tomson Black & Proud Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,275	Or some fax software for your pc?

09-05-2003, 12:02	#17 (permalink)
Mr Fred Magazines™ Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Glasgow.. Posts: 11,344	well beers didn't help. more tonight i suppose ......arrrrr rose tinted stella glasses

14-05-2003, 09:14	#19 (permalink)
Northernboy Born to be mild Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: St Neots Posts: 21	I would imagine that you would be hard pushed to pursue a serious legal claim that an email was legally binding, after all it is not an identity-secure media unless an additional layer of verification / security (such as PGP) is used, and can be spoofed with enormous ease by using anything from Outlook Express to direct SMTP spoofing. Imagine that you send an email to your client, Dave, with a contract to pay you £10000. His mate Phil somehow has access to his email, and thinks that your price is most reasonable and thinks it will also be a chuckle to stitch Dave up. Phil then replies to your email in Dave's name and says "I agree unreservedly". He then permanently deletes your original message and his reply and strolls off grinning smugly at having stitched up his mate. You receive the reply and think everything is rosy. You do the job and submit your invoice, at which point Dave hits the roof and refuses to pay. You say he agreed, and that you have that agreement in an email. He says he didn't and has no evidence to suggest that he ever even received your contract. Who's right? How can you prove anything? Who has the best lawyers? Good old pen on paper is still the prefered method, even though a similar analogy could be drawn with someone signing on their behalf with a well forged signature. It all comes down to basically acting in good faith and being able to cover your own arse. Email is transient, and does not neccessarily leave a permanent trail. It does not have to neccessarily be stored at any point between them and you, and is difficult to track, but at least with a signed document in your hand you have the first thing any good detective will look for - solid, physical evidence. Just my 2p

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search