[John Good]

the client have a in house webmaster that codes with frames and tables (booooo!) and want to revisit their website.

they ask me to make a new design, some valid HXTML templates and a strong stylesheet.

I'm about to make a package for two thousand Euros.

What do you think ?

[steveb]

I think you may be on to a good thing. A month's wages for a website can't be bad.

[John Good]

a month ? I thought finland was a wealthy country...
I hope I wont spend a month on a design, a css and a few templates though.

[steveb]

Wealthy? You must be thinking of Norway!
No, the average monthly wage for a Finn is around 2300 euros from which about 30% is deducted for tax. (That includes ALL deductions: health insurance, income tax, unemployment insurance etc)
Creatives can earn a whole lot more if they get well known, but their careers are short - they go out of fashion, their name "wears out", or they lose their edge through repetition or alcoholism.
In fact, I'm gonna get another beer right now.

[Herr Kurm]

Originally Posted by John Good

a month ?

more like 3 months in here. Fucking rich bastards.

[freelancr]

christ I clearly don't charge enough... they would get a bespoke CMS and shopping cart too for that money.

[John Good]

would you like to pay 10€ for two pounds of tomatoes ?

[steveb]

I once paid 6€/kg for imported tomatoes in the middle of winter because I was entertaining guests and needed them for grub I was making, but I would not buy them for ten euros! Are you paying that?

Mr Kurm, please remember that all our other prices are in line with our huge wages. My wages were 1850/month before I started my own company, leaving me with 1380 after tax. My rent is 480, transport 120, electric 30, broadband 25, beer 200. It all adds up! You can live just as well on a small wage in a country with a low price index as you can with 10000€ a month in Oslo where a beer costs 12€. It's not like we have Finnish wages and Estonian prices!

[John Good]

seriously :

#1
design, client corrections, redesign, re corrections, redisign :
14 hours x 75€ = about 1000€

#2
a good CSS with at least five templates :
16 hours x 75€ = about 1000€

so what ?

if the life level is different in our respective countries, let's talk about hours.

do you really think it's too much ?

[John Good]

@steveb

prices are really high here. cheaper that Paris where I used to live.
And now, as we've just had a cyclone, vegetables are very, very, very expensive.

edit : beer is still cheap !

[Herr Kurm]

You guys still get more stuff for your money. I live in fucking poverty compared to you!

[John Good]

yes, you are. but that won't last, believe me.

[steveb]

But things improve slowly, Mr Kurm. For example, I now own my own bicycle and cooking pots. But from what I hear about foreign debt in the Baltic states, you're all in for a wake up call pretty soon. You are all spending much more than you earn. Not good. Finland did that in the 1980s and we had the mother of all recessions in the 90s. I lost my excellent job in advertising, my stylish apartment and spent two years in a very peculiar financial situation. Good thing this is a welfare state! I don't think you are so poor compared with other Europeans your age, Mr Kurm. You have access to education, employment and the internet - what more do you want at 20-something?!

[Jayx]

Try Africa for size - everyone here is used to getting everything for fuck all and there's always some newcomer who's willing to cut everyone's throat in order to get his/her career started. And don't think for a moment anything's cheap here either.

[Herr Kurm]

Originally Posted by steveb

You have access to education, employment and the internet - what more do you want at 20-something?!

I want blonde triplets, apartment in a skyscraper and a Rolls Royce Phantom.

I am working 14h a day, from my Estonian clients I get like 200€ for a logo, I eat every day for 15€ + smokes and beer, I have rent and bills to pay plus all the cash I have spent on building/modifying my car. I have to pay 2300€ a year for my education from this autumn. If I wouldnt be selling design to Europe and "US and A" I would simply die of hunger. The additional costs like new hardware, fonts and software are killing my arse too.

[steveb]

I had a friend whose daughter went on a six month student stipend to Johannesburg in 2002 (from Finland). After two weeks, she begged to be sent the money for a return ticket. I never found out why, exactly, but it had to do with her reaction to the racism around her. I assume she was living with a white family (don't know for sure) but she was well traumatized.

[steveb]

Mr Kurm, it sounds like you are one of the reasons my own company went out of business. (I terminated it as a waste of time and money on 30/4/2007).
No, that's unfair. We didn't compete.
Well, that's life, Sunshine! Bills and rent, the big money suckers. Why do you need a broken-down car? Get rid of it and go by bus. Save thousands! And learn to cook. Save more thousands!

[Herr Kurm]

You should not worry about the competition from me - I bleed my foreign clients dry, I charge almost the same as the designers abroad.

I am a race track junkie, I can move around the city by a bus but if I cant get a decent adrenaline rush in a week I cant find any inspiration. And I cook at home, I just eat helluva lot!

[lmclaney]

Well, that's life, Sunshine! Bills and rent, the big money suckers. Why do you need a broken-down car? Get rid of it and go by bus. Save thousands! And learn to cook. Save more thousands!

Damn right thats life. Im a student and Im already about 10 grand in debt and I have to try and scrape together enough cash to pay for books, software, trips to interviews. I live on £15 a week for food! By the time im finished with uni I'll probably be owing about 15 grand and Il still not be making as much money as you guys. So someone please give me an internship!! Oh and £15 a week makes you really creative at cooking.

[steveb]

Well, 280 eeks a day is a lot of grub.
Sounds like you have the money to do what you want. Don't bitch! You'll get your skyscraper pad in time.