[ZenBug]

Originally Posted by pgo

I get how I could do static pages with template groups and templates. But that only allows for two levels of navigational depth.

I'm not sure what you mean by levels of navigational depth. Wouldn't navigational depth be a function of how you build your nav menu, and not the responsibility of the CMS anyway? Can you explain?

[pgo]

In EE, there's not logical, hierarchical page structure like every other CMS in the world.

[ZenBug]

That's not a flaw, it's the beauty of EE. You don't have to force your site into the layout of the CMS; instead, you structure the CMS around your site. So if you want a hierarchical page structure, build one in your Nav template.

[pgo]

It doesn't make any sense to me. And definitely doesn't make sense to content editors.

[Dusteh]

How would non-web savvy editors add new pages if the menu is hard-coded in the nav template? Thats not a workable system.

The reason no one mentions Joomla is because its badly in need of an overhaul, although it has the most plugins and components, its all thrown together any which way. Anyone who has used Joomla, with Virtuemart and a gallery module plugged into it - and then tried to teach someone else how to use all the seperate backend functions - whilst avoiding the bugs, will feel the pain. Its just not a professional option. Its fine if you are running your own site asa hobby - its not something you can rely upon to be stable for selling - nor is it something I relish the thought of training people in using.

PGO, the problem I've found with CMS made simple is that although its slick at what it does, it simply can't handle larger scale sites. The way content and the menu is dealt with through the same system is brilliant for your average site - but for really hefty corporate jobs its not even a contender.

IBM chose Drupal for their intranet, and they have a series of articles explaining their thought process as they put it into use - might be worth reading those:

Using open source software to design, develop, and deploy a collaborative Web site, Part 1: Introduction and overview

The way it treats content as 'nodes' - be it an article, or an image, or whatever - is odd, its lack of built-in admin backend is even odder, but with a bit of code to detect if the admin is logged in it can be made to switch to a seperate admin template. Its advanced menu systems are a real head fuck... it took me days to comprehend the taxonomy module... I didn't even know what taxonomy meant to start with. But its powerful. I've not yet had time to roll out a large site on it (beecaus they also won't risk a switch at my workplace) but from what I've had a chance to read and play with in my own time, I think its got the right balance between flexibility, stability and learning curve. I mean people say Typo3 is ultra-powerful - but its learning curve is insane. You may as well learn PHP and hand code what you need yourself than learn its own proprietary language.

[pgo]

Originally Posted by Dusteh

PGO, the problem I've found with CMS made simple is that although its slick at what it does, it simply can't handle larger scale sites.

It's handling our corporate intranet alright.

And I'm hoping it can handle our websites, too, because that's what we're moving to!

[Jayx]

Originally Posted by Dusteh

The reason no one mentions Joomla is because its badly in need of an overhaul, although it has the most plugins and components, its all thrown together any which way. Anyone who has used Joomla, with Virtuemart and a gallery module plugged into it - and then tried to teach someone else how to use all the seperate backend functions - whilst avoiding the bugs, will feel the pain. Its just not a professional option. Its fine if you are running your own site asa hobby - its not something you can rely upon to be stable for selling - nor is it something I relish the thought of training people in using.

As I say, I myself have been avoiding it, but times change and I am starting to lag behind on the competitive front - so I have to start offering my clients CMS if I intend to stay in business. Joomla is in the middle of a re-write and not that difficult to get to grips with. I do understand what you say with regards to training clients to use it - that is why I'll only ever allow clients access to the front end (in other words copy and image changes), just to be sure they don't fuck it up too badly. I have looked at other systems and they all seem to require that someone more technical than me operates them.

I think we come back to what pgo was on about in one of the other threads about acquiring new skills while getting through your workload. If I had the time, I'd sure like to give Drupal a go - I have looked at it and it does seem powerful, but again I have some studying to do.

Thanks for the reply though Dusteh

[Dusteh]

My advice would be to use CMS made simple to start with, it takes a couple of days to learn and its time well spent, once you get the way the templates work (you assign CSS files to template files, and then assign those to the pages) its plain sailing.

A word of warning, Joomla has been in the middle of a rewrite for a long, long time now. I wouldn't hold out for a revamped version to appear any time soon.

Drupal has been used by IBM and MTV UK - so its flexibility is not a problem, check out the article on its use on a New York newspaper at the moment, they talk through how they achieved certain features and its worth a read regardless of what CMS you use.

[pgo]

Out of curiosity, why do you think CMSMS isn't capable of handling larger sites? One of the devs has claimed to be using it on a site with 10,000 registered users with no problems.

I find that the menu/page system is quite versatile. My only complaint is with page aliases being unique. For instance, I can't have /product-1/features/ and /product-2/features since there can't be two pages with the "features" alias. That's the only problem I have with it (that's merely cosmetic, though).

I just use /product-name/product-name-features/. More product names in the URL, yay!

/product-name/features-[NUMBER]/ would work too.

Doesn't Drupal just do that /node/234235/ crap, though?

Originally Posted by Dusteh

(you assign CSS files to template files, and then assign those to the pages)

I personally don't use the CMSMS CSS management and choose to use hard files and include my <link />s in the "Global Settings" -> "Metadata".

[Dusteh]

As far as I'm aware you can't tag content to multiple categories, and then dynamically call up that content unless you use the limited news feature. Its all built around the single menu structure. Also calling in extra blocks of content on a category by category basis isn't really feasible. Global content blocks don't cut it when you have large numbers of pages.

The news function is fine and can be hacked to provide different forms of input - but managing them in the backend is too simple.

Imagine trying to run a site like MTV.co.uk (a drupal site) on CMS Made Simple. I wouldn't like to try.

[pgo]

Fair enough, but I'm not trying to run a publishing/community site like that.

[Dusteh]

Its simple but powerful things like allowing the client to upload content with several custom-built input categories. If you scroll down a bit to 'data architecture' on this talk-through you can see what I'm on about. Thats not too much to ask for, yet so many CMS systems (Joomla And CMSMS included) simply aren't that flexible.

[pgo]

Hmmm. Well, I'm thinking I might give Drupal a serious effort.

Any advice for someone completely ignorant of its workings? For instance, can you create "user groups" who only see certain pieces of content to create a customized experience?

Besides what's been posted. Any key points or concepts?

[Dusteh]

Knowing you hate not having a seperate admin backend as much as I do, you might want to check out:

Creating a separate admin theme | drupal.org
Take control of your Drupal theme | Lullabot

Although I'm not up to speed any more, not sure what changes drupal 5 would make to this.

[pgo]

Well, I installed and played with it for about 2 hours yesterday on my dev server at work.

I actually finally think I'm beginning to see how it works and its power. I'll definitely spend some more time on it.

[pgo]

Coming back here after being distracted with other projects for the last two months.

I'm still uncertain, but I'm beginning to think I might ditch CMS Made Simple. So, I'm considering the following:

1. Drupal
2. MODx (new interface is lovely!)

[Dusteh]

cool, this is still a subject I need to put more time into as well. Can you keep us up to date with your opinions on both, likes and dislikes?

[paulanthony]

Theres a good old list of CMS advantages etc at Wikipedia

List of content management systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[mike_m]

I got shown the possibilities of Drupal a few weeks ago by a company that does some high end websites (lot's of government and top brand stuff) using it exclusively. Obviously there's a large learning curve, but after seeing how they use it, I'm totally sold. It's just a case of investing the time to get to know what to do with it.

[pgo]

Think I'm going to give Drupal a serious try. Just bought Amazon.com: Pro Drupal Development: Books: John K. VanDyk,Matt Westgate