[Mandy Moo]

Hi,
I would like to work for a design agency but I'm just not sure what they pay. I have recently received an application pack from a Manchester agency but was gutted when I saw that the salary was only £11,000 - £12,000. I didn't bother applying... its less than what I am on now and I thought I was on poor salary. I am also with a recruitment agency who keep finding me agency jobs that's around £12,000. Do I need to start cutting my salary expectation (I'm only asking for 16-18k and I do have 3 yrs experience) or doesn't all design agency pay peanuts?

I'm about to start a big campaign targeting Manchester Design Agencies, it includes designing my portfolio website and posting promotional gifts to these agencies with my website address on. This will cost me over a hundred pounds (web hosting and printing promotional gifts). Am I wasting my time and money if it gets me a job that pays poorly?

Here's the design that will be printed and distributed in mousemats and coasters.

[Maerk]

The illustration is kind of interesting, not sure why you chose something that looks like the US flag. The idea of mousemats and coasters seems a bit lame :/ Also the site link doesn't work for me?

And no they don't always pay peanuts, but junior positions do start at peanuts, depends what it is you actually do, middle weight design ranges anywhere from 17-25k (I think), depends what you're targeting, there havent been many middleweight positions so far this year advertised.

[Azeem]

I wouldnt focus on just design agencies. I work at a company in UK that isn't a design agency, but I'm still a web designer, so I still get to be creative and artistic nearly every day.

The pay is also not bad. I'd say focus on getting a web dev job first.

[Mandy Moo]

The website is still in progress, it isn't up and running yet. I thought mousemats and coasters would be a good idea because it's something useful and they would hopefully be used and when these creative heads are looking to hire... the coasters and mousemats on their desk would make them think of going on my website. Is it still lame? What other form of mailer would you suggest that would serve the purpose?

I don't know about web developing jobs... you have to bear in mind that a week ago I didn't know anything about dreamweaver. I went out and brought Dreamweaver for Dummies to help me build this website to display my portfolio. Sure, I can add Dreamweaver to my software skills but calling myself a web developer? I'm not that good.

[Alexanda]

contact d&ad north and arrange a folio session, my mate has done it

[Mandy Moo]

Where is D&AD North, Manchester? What's the procedure and the outcome your mate had?

[Azeem]

Originally Posted by Mandy Moo

I don't know about web developing jobs... you have to bear in mind that a week ago I didn't know anything about dreamweaver. I went out and brought Dreamweaver for Dummies to help me build this website to display my portfolio. Sure, I can add Dreamweaver to my software skills but calling myself a web developer? I'm not that good.

In that case I suggest you start learning. A designer that can code in xhtml (at least) is more valuable than one who can just design.

Also dont get too familiar with dreamweaver. Get the basics but move straight onto hand-coding. Visit sites like htmldog.com and spend a lot of time learning about xhtml and css. Thats what I did.

[Mandy Moo]

Yeah I suppose it would be a good idea to learn web design... the amount of jobs you see looking for a Graphic Designer/Web Designer...it bloody annoys me. Don't they realise it two separate degrees?!!

[hawken]

we don't do it for the money

we do it for the free booze and loose women

[Dusteh]

I don't think its unreasonable to expect someone to have skills in both graphic and web design. With so many small flexible agencies these days, no one wants someone with a narrow skillset.

[Maerk]

Erm I'd ignore Azeem, if you're not a web designer, "just" a designer you don't need to try to be both to get a job. No offence Azeem, but from what she's said she isn't a web designer or developer and doesn't need to compromise what it is she does to get a job someplace which wouldn't expect her to be both, more valuable is rubbish unless you're applying to a specific web design company like Code. More often than not people are either a web designer/developer or a (graphic) designer with different strengths in different fields.

Mandy yes there's a lot of web design positions out there, but if its not what you're looking for don't just randomly decide to leap for those too, be patient I'm in similar boat really there's just not many middleweight design positions being advertised yet this year (in manchester area anyway, I've counted so far like two.)


Regarding the mailers, coasters and mousemats I understand the reasoning, but with a huge web address on them seem a bit too try hard, unless the illustration/design on them is absolutely jaw droppingly unforgettably gorgeous (it's nice but not sure I'd personally keep something like that on my desk) it's probably not a great idea. It's quite a big assumption that someone will want it smack on their desk from the moment they get it. Plus I can't actually think of many designers who have mousemats (none where I work, PC based people tend to).

The best mailers we've received/have seen as printer's samples have been something very clever (it's customised to who's receiving it/is a clever folding piece of print/nice to toy with and keep around/tactile gets everyone in the office playing with it/is a perfect example of print or design or illustration. Of course doing these things take time and effort (I haven't come up with anything yet myself I keep meaning to but with full time job it's hard to keep up with it.)

And just wondering are you currently employed at an agency or when you say three years experience you don't just mean your degree do you?

[Maerk]

Sure no one wants a narrow skill set, some basic html knowledge can't hurt anyone but there are a lot of jobs asking for everything on a plate lol I first learned a few web skills when I was just starting out and saw all these jobs advertising for both, and I know very few people who ever use both. The knowledge I have is useful, but I don't have a head for coding and wouldn't want to do both. But thats me. I actually know a few artworkers who know some serious coding skills which surprised me but then web development I suppose is the production side much like artworking.

[Alexanda]

If your a print designer be a print designer.

You can find more about d&ad on the website.

Mid Weight design jobs are out there, you just need a great folio and somebody will snap you up.

[Maerk]

Originally Posted by cantona

If your a print designer be a print designer.

You can find more about d&ad on the website.

Mid Weight design jobs are out there, you just need a great folio and somebody will snap you up.

They're kept very bloody quiet if they are lol Have only seen two advertised in Manchester area yet this year. Haven't been spamming agencies though I guess.

[Azeem]

Originally Posted by Maerk

Erm I'd ignore Azeem, if you're not a web designer, "just" a designer you don't need to try to be both to get a job. No offence Azeem, but from what she's said she isn't a web designer or developer and doesn't need to compromise what it is she does to get a job someplace which wouldn't expect her to be both

Im not trying to downplay her skills as a designer. I'm being realistic. Sure she might only consider herself a designer and wants a job in the web industry - but if the only job she is being offered are in the 12K region then something needs to be done. Also If you don't have a portfolio of work then as a designer you wont be recognised.

It would be great if we didnt need to make compromises and just do exactly what we want but in the real world its sadly not the case. I can only talk from experience and all I can say is that I dont think I would have got the job I'm in if i couldnt do both design and development - because then the company would need to employ another person who can code. People who can design and code are a dime a dozen these days.
I like to think I'm better at design but I still enjoy the coding side so i'm not too fussed.

I know there are people who work just purely in design and thats great but unless you are a very good designer with a great portfolio, I think it might be hard to find a job in this particular industry just designing.

If you want to just design in print then all I can say is completely focus on improving your design skills and ignore the web side altogether.

[Maerk]

I never said design only for print, design can be for web or screen or print or well anything but web development is a whole separate thing. And some skills in it are useful of course, your suggestion seemed a bit further than that though.

I just don't see her saying she's looking for a web design job anywhere. Having additional skills never hurts, but just don't think she should trip herself up doing something entirely different if its not the area she's trying to break into. If it's a web agency she's trying for then well sure she'll need to know some of both.

[Narate]

I wouldnt moan over 12k, at the moment I'd be happy to take on a design job at some of the agencies Ive looked at for a pat on the back every day. Its a tricky business, you're up against a hell of a lot of competition and sending out mousemats just doesnt cut it as a creative designer. Most of that lark will quickly migrate to the dustbin.

[Azeem]

I'm not saying she should learn anything heavy like php/mySQL or AJAX. But a little XHTML and CSS hurts nobody and its very easy to learn. thats all I'm saying.

[Maerk]

Originally Posted by Narate

I wouldnt moan over 12k, at the moment I'd be happy to take on a design job at some of the agencies Ive looked at for a pat on the back every day. Its a tricky business, you're up against a hell of a lot of competition and sending out mousemats just doesnt cut it as a creative designer. Most of that lark will quickly migrate to the dustbin.

As an entry level position 12K or lower is to be expected yea, I only just got put over that level a few months back (and not by much). And aye agreed on the mousemats.

Depends if she's already working someplace as a designer, guess she isn't bit hard to tell, the three years experience threw me.



Fair enough Azeem sorry for having such a response, just felt I should play devils advocate, balance it out with "you don't need to be a web designer to get a job as a designer" which is how it felt a bit from a few responses not just yours. (Personally I found learning any HTML and CSS very hard though, my brain just doesn't absorb things like that, and that's the easy stuff! )

[Azeem]

Originally Posted by Maerk

Fair enough Azeem sorry for having such a response, just felt I should play devils advocate, balance it out with "you don't need to be a web designer to get a job as a designer" which is how it felt a bit from a few responses not just yours. (Personally I found learning any HTML and CSS very hard though, my brain just doesn't absorb things like that, and that's the easy stuff! )

Cool man. Also you said you are only on just over 12K a year? - Full time!? - Man Iv'e seen your portfolio and you are worth more than that! What gives?