[Bill Posters]

I'm not convinced that 'working' as a designer would necessarily provide any substantial benefits to a person's ability to study something academically at MA/PhD level - remembering that MAs and PhDs are much less about yielding direct vocational benefits than a BA or HND.
I appreciate that work and life experiences in general offer certain benefits, but if a younger person has a good insight into a subject and the MA/PhD interview panel consider them to have a promising take on a subject and are willing to offer them a place on the course, then I don't see why the person shouldn't take them up on that offer.
Interview panels, at least, good interview panels, will be able to spot when an individual needs some time doing other things if they are to get the most out of their intended field of study.

Regarding lecturers:
To a certain extent, I think that the same can be said for lecturers who may never have actually been a practicing designer.
For BA course, I wouldn't consider someone without vocational experience to be a wise choice for a 2nd or 3rd year BA tutor.
When I graduated from my BA, I was asked if I would be interested in coming back as a VL for 1st year students on that course.
I think that was down to the head of course recognising a level of technical proficiency that wouldn't let anyone down, but mostly that I had a good level of academic and political engagement with the course.
I'd already done some cover for the BTEC Nat/Dip Design course at that site, but any 3rd year BA student with a decent grasp of people management and well developed views on the subject could represent the right kind of influence to BTEC or Foundation students.

I feel a good BA course has a good mix of experienced and fresh minds.
The year following my BA graduation, the head of course began introducing recent MA graduates as visiting lecturers for all years of the BA course.
It proved a popular decision as it injected some fresh thinking into the course in general - a course which, upto that point, had become slightly stale and overly obsessed with producing vocationally competent designers, rather than graduates sufficiently engaged with the subject to possibly become influential in helping design practice and design education turn the next corner.


At the end of the day it comes down to the individuals. Some established designers tutoring on the course proved useful to some students and less so to others.
Some fresh minds and fresh approaches, whilst being on a whole, a popular introduction, left some students wondering about the benefits of their supposed 'high ideals'.

As with student interviews, it's the purpose of the interview panel to measure up the value of each applicant and offer places/jobs that create the best possible blend of experiences and personalities to make the course the best it can be.
The interplay of experiences and personalities is actually a very siginificant factor when offering places/jobs as the panel will try to create an environment where everyone involved, student and tutor and management alike, will bring with them their own contributions to the most fruitful environment for development that they are able to create.

Fwiw, I didn’t get accepted onto either of my MA choices first time of asking*, but after applying again the following year and swapping out the ‘slick’ portfolio for the rougher, more engaged one, I was offered places on both courses.
The rougher, more engaged portfolio contained mostly work that I had produced as self-initiated projects during my final year at BA as well as a smattering of work of a similar vein that I had produced on the side during my unexpectedly early introduction to the world of freelancing.
(* It later turned out that I’d actually been offered a place on one of the MA courses, but through an office mix-up, I’d actually been sent the ‘thanks, but no thanks’ letter. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise given how things turned out the following year.)

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Tomson, fair enough, it was a joke, but it's one that's getting a bit worn out.
It would be nice to think you could let the odd compliment towards me pass without having the usual kneejerk reaction.
Just a thought.

-

MAs and PhDs in design are far from useless, unless you believe that design should cease to evolve as an academic subject and social influence.
As said, they are of limited direct use to the workplace, but can help create and inject progressive and insightful ideas into a discipline that presently seems largely complacent and far too comfortable with practicing design as the superfical pursuit of superficial values.

MAs and PhDs help those who study for them gain an overview that you simply can’t get from either a BA course or when devoting yourself entirely to the ‘job’ of designing.

It would be a mistake to dismiss the beneficial impact that MA and PhD-level thinking has had on design education, design practice and on a broader note, entire design philosophy.
If it weren’t for those who had taken the time to push their ideas that bit further, it’s highly likely that design history would have played out quite differently to how it did and equally likely that we’d still be 100 years or so away from seeing workaday designers having this kind of debate.

[tomson]

Originally Posted by Bill Posters

blah blah...


Tomson, fair enough, it was a joke, but it's one that's getting a bit worn out.
It would be nice to think you could let the odd compliment towards me pass without having the usual kneejerk reaction.
Just a thought.

Strange, I don't recall saying anything derogatory towards you recently ... and I certainly don't recall anyone paying you a compliment, let alone me having a pop at you about it. But if you are feeling overly sensitive at the moment i'll try my best to refrain from injecting any sarcasm/irony/humour, or anything else you might find upsetting, into any posts directly relating to yourself.

Please accept my humblest apologies.

[Brown]

Originally Posted by tomson

Cheer up you miserable sod, it was a joke.

a funny one too.

[Mik]

Creep

[Mik]

I meant tomson not brown.
ah fuck it.

maybe maybe Bill

[alice]

Well, today went ok, on my best behavior, I didn't trip up, didn't get pissed, and O the family cooed. My Dad got some so called 'classy' shots, and my mum ordered some 'professional' photographs back-stage. I didn't get my scroll, just got a hand shake!, talk about cheap ass uni's.

I can't wait to start the Masters, I've already started working on it, I know exactly who, what and how I'm working on it, I've even planned the 'excursions' to Madrid, London, Barcelona, Paris (2nd time this summer), and I should hopefully make another few trips before the years out. Now I've just got to find some cash.

Bill, what area of study are you interested in? or what did you study for your MA?
Am I right in thinking a PhD is about the inventing, understanding, communicating something wholly innovative, and presenting somthing thats never been thought of, or written about? rather than simply writing a book, as some might think.
I'd love to be able to go so far, if the opportunity and timing is right, you should take it, and do it full-time. If doing a PhD is something you know you have to do, need to do, want to do, you should do it and do it before your near-dead, get the most out of it.

Originally Posted by Bill

I do enjoy the theoretical aspects of art and design, but the last time my head was in the right mind to tackle my target issue was about two years ago. The idea of tackling it now feels like an enormous uphill struggle.
Still, the subject, issues and arguments are always there at the back of my mind, so perhaps my interest in it will pick up again to the point where I feel ready to really immerse myself in it and do the best job possible with it - and, as said, really add something to the debate.

Get yourself back into the game. Start with the literature, small notes, mind mapping etc. (just in own time) and if the motivation comes back within a year, then the timing must be right, if theres no motivation and no passion, then give up for a decade, maybe?
Yeh it is a struggle at first when it comes to switching from practice to theory. You think you're whole thinking , processes and practice methods have to change, but really most of the thoughts and ideas are already set in your working methods, its just bringing them to light, then the building of the PhD begins.


btw: I must have been very lucky, I've had a really good experience with my uni's. Every tutor who's taught me has had, or works in industry, and not talking small time firms/jobs either. It seems Uni's are now looking for tutors with industry experience rather than just the certificates. I've definetly benifited more from the tutors with experience. As students, we have been encouraged to work with employers, clients, do as many work placements as possible, attend workshops and lectures by employers, this debate goes on... see Creative Review back issues. I realise, as do many students, even after gaining an MA that I'm not going to just walk into some job and expect a £20,000 pay packet, and I'll most probably have a few years of work placments, small time freelance work, and book pushing, I'll bloody do it, and love it.

Originally Posted by Japanmik

MA/PHD in design is utterly useless

thats an utterly shit thing to say.
I hope to understand, more than most people can imagine.
MA/phD is for most genuine students, not just about the title or qualification hit-list, its about self development. You need to read some philosophy, my boy! I suggest a look at Alain de Botton's books for a start.

Originally Posted by BillPosters

As said, they are of limited direct use to the workplace, but can help create and inject progressive and insightful ideas into a discipline that presently seems largely complacent and far too comfortable with practicing design as the superfical pursuit of superficial values.

I thoroughly agree. I recently went for an interview with a firm, who were taken aback by my MA proposal and prep work, I got the placement, quite probably because they were so interested in what I put forward to them.

btw: I'm studying societal issues, the pursuit of happiness, primal instincts, online behaviors, and web communities.

[Mik]

Originally Posted by alice

thats an utterly shit thing to say.
I hope to understand, more than most people can imagine.
MA/phD is for most genuine students, not just about the title or qualification hit-list, its about self development. You need to read some philosophy, my boy! I suggest a look at Alain de Botton's books for a start.

Read it about 6 months ago

If you have read Status Anxiety, you can see where I am coming from.

Originally Posted by alice

I hope to understand, more than most people can imagine.

Oh the irony.

Its only my redneck view, but comments like "I hope to understand, more than most people can imagine. " go someway to explain why I feel this way, and its only concerning design subjects.

[beebolbod]

Originally Posted by alice

I hope to understand, more than most people can imagine.

Ooops - you were doing so well and then took a wrong turn.
Poppud up your own arse briefly there.

Well done tho'. A real achievement.

[Stickman]

Notice the comma.

[alice]

i wasn't pissed, but I had had a drink! sorry, excuse my waffle and the 'up own ass' talk. I shall read my replys more thoroughly in future.

[Stickman]

So you were tunnelling up your own arse. tsk

That's the last time I give you the benefit of the doubt.

[alice]

It weren't so much as up my own ass schpeal, it was more along the lines of...
Actually no, theres no way I'm digging myself out of this one.
as you were, people.
back to business.
tsk! indeed.

[beebolbod]

Originally Posted by Stickman

Notice the comma.

'twas just a joke - oh how gallant the boys 'pon this forum are.

[Bill Posters]

MA, schmem-ay