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Old 13-03-2008, 07:20   #1 (permalink)
Paddy
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Designer != Developer?

I've been looking at a few designer/developer recruitment sites recently and I'm beginning to notice this rather worrying phenomenon.

Has anyone else noticed the fast growing trend for prospective employers demanding that applicants have a detailed knowledge of programming technologies, front end coding, and a flair for typography, colour theory, layout and style?

At present I know my way around Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign and Quark. I have some experience with Flash and I can make a site in Dreamweaver but in order to make things do what I want I usually end up with more tables than an Ikea warehouse. Standards be damned.

As a fledgling designer, I find myself daunted by the apparent need to learn XHTML, CSS, PHP, and AJAX in depth before I am even to be considered for a job in the design world.

Does anyone else feel the same way?
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Old 13-03-2008, 07:21   #2 (permalink)
Paddy
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Sorry for the double post, but just look at this pile of pretentious, over ambitious twaddle. Found on Krop.

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Web sites are your thing. Visual design is your specialty. You don’t like to be labeled Web 2.0, but you can design the hell out of interactions for the web utilizing Flash or AJAX. Your roots are in graphic design and you aren’t afraid to push the boundaries. Creative Suite may be your weapon of choice, but the tools are transparent and your ideas shine through.

You must be detail oriented and expect the most from yourself and others. Good enough just isn’t. You have a strong typographic sensibility and understand how to tie type and imagery together into a structured concept. Color. Composition. Brand identity.

Your work breathes. You produce the unexpected.
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Old 13-03-2008, 08:12   #3 (permalink)
Bishop
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Interesting read!

I guess with so many designers out there, potential employers can pretty much demand what they want from future designers. I guess its a good way to find the cream of the crop, although in my experience qualifications mean fuck all in the design world, thus the need for a super portfolio.

The need to learn XHTML, CSS, PHP, and AJAX is par for the course and knowing its needed in the industry (IMO) means i'm going to have to learn it. I decided to make my own business, so if I cant compete with with Johny design firm i'm wasting my time. If and when I choose to employ somebody, I would go for the guy who showed the most talent all the other crap can be learnt. But thats just me!

In short: I will be forever learning new skills, just to stay alive in the design world, weather I like it or not. And unfortunately with all the other crap in my head i'm afraid there aint much room left.
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Old 13-03-2008, 09:04   #4 (permalink)
woodss
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Learning XHTML/CSS will allow better understanding of the platform you're developing for; the web. Type limitations, layout issues etc are all factors you need to consider while designing, especially for data-driven sites but also for simply presenting information well.

I'm a decent coder both front-end and back-end (ASP/ASP.NET) as well as developing desktop applications but my design skills while reasonable are no way on par with professional designers. That's something i'd like to work on but I accept I might not have the creative ability to improve. I find my average skills are more than adequate for prototyping however.

That Krop piss-take is exactly the reason people think designers are pretentious. It makes me feel sick to read it lol
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Old 13-03-2008, 09:16   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Web sites are your thing. Visual design is your specialty. You don’t like to be labeled Web 2.0, but you can design the hell out of interactions for the web utilizing Flash or AJAX. Your roots are in graphic design and you aren’t afraid to push the boundaries. Creative Suite may be your weapon of choice, but the tools are transparent and your ideas shine through.

You must be detail oriented and expect the most from yourself and others. Good enough just isn’t. You have a strong typographic sensibility and understand how to tie type and imagery together into a structured concept. Color. Composition. Brand identity.

Your work breathes. You produce the unexpected.

Or in other words. "We're a pack of wankers. Are you a wanker? Come wank with us."
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Old 13-03-2008, 09:31   #6 (permalink)
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Paddy, I feel your pain. I am in the same situation, WITH A VERY SIMILAR SKILL SET...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I know my way around Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign and Quark. I have some experience with Flash and I can make a site in Dreamweaver

what are you doing at the moment? I'm in my first job since uni, getting the essential experience, mainly doing dtp but also do a bit of advertising and flash banners (all for a company, so its not an agency). But I'm feeling like I'll have to learn a lot more about web development if I am to go further.
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Old 13-03-2008, 09:47   #7 (permalink)
hawken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I can make a site in Dreamweaver but in order to make things do what I want I usually end up with more tables than an Ikea warehouse. Standards be damned.

Lazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
I find myself daunted by the apparent need to learn XHTML, CSS, PHP, and AJAX in depth before I am even to be considered for a job in the design world.

Lazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Does anyone else feel the same way?

Lazy
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:01   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawken
Lazy
Lazy
Lazy
I never said I wasn't going to learn. I just feel a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I am perfectly entitled to.

KID A: I'm currently just a bedroom designer. I study marketing in college but I can't see that lasting long as it's shit. I will (if all goes to plan) be working for a local design agency over the summer as a junior designer. I'm hoping to get more work from them after that as well.

I think I'm a bit slow on the uptake of the coding side of things. I naturally gravitate more towards print simply because I think a tangible final product is nicer. This print style then bleeds () over into my design for web, so it looks like print and is less optimised for coding.

I intend to learn enough XHTML and CSS over the next few months to be able to build my own sites.

In fact I'm setting a target. I must be able to code a small functioning site from scratch by June 1st when my work with the design firm will hopefully start.
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:07   #9 (permalink)
d*d
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Html and Css are markup languages, not programming languages and should be learned by any designer working on the internet, PHP, ASP, RoR etc are programming languages and whilst there's no harm in a designer knowing how them - they are better handled by developers
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:13   #10 (permalink)
Paddy
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Ok. Well I've set a goal.

Any good XHTML/CSS tutorials you know of?
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:17   #11 (permalink)
hawken
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agreed.

CSS and XHTML are designers tools for making websites. If you don't know them, you can't make websites. only webshites.

In a nutshell, even if you don't touch the markup and only do layout, you should know how it works inside out.

even though you are daunted by these things, whats the point for a potential employer to take you on if you don't? I wouldn't hire someone who doesn't know these things.
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:19   #12 (permalink)
Larixk
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W3Schools Online Web Tutorials

I'm having this problem the other way around a bit: I'm working on a university degree in computer sciences and AI, and I'm quite well schooled in XHTML/CSS/PHP/Actionscript and such but I haven't had a real design education. Sure I browse around designers' blogs, museums, and books on design in my free time. But still I don't feel I'll ever reach the level of being able to call myself a great designer without a degree or at least some years of education in the field.

How do you guys feel about this. Is an education in design necessary, or could years of self-teaching and a bit of talent just do the trick?
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:44   #13 (permalink)
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I think natural talent is required before you get into the whole "ability to use Photoshop etc" side of things.

Anyone can learn to use software but if they have crap creative skills then its not going to happen anyway.
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:48   #14 (permalink)
Dusty
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I think natural talent is a given. You are pretty fucked looking for a job without it.
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Old 13-03-2008, 10:58   #15 (permalink)
Bishop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larixk
Is an education in design necessary, or could years of self-teaching and a bit of talent just do the trick?

I think some education or at least understanding of design is necessary, other than that 'want' 'talent' and 'time' is all you need.

The more you do the more you understand. Most of the tutorials and crap on the net these days is pretty much the same stuff you would do at uni. you just need a group of wankers to rip in to your work, cue DT.
FYI most of the critiques on DT are a lot nicer than I gave and experienced at uni, it's definately a tool worth using.
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Old 13-03-2008, 11:04   #16 (permalink)
Paddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larixk
W3Schools Online Web Tutorials

I'm having this problem the other way around a bit: I'm working on a university degree in computer sciences and AI, and I'm quite well schooled in XHTML/CSS/PHP/Actionscript and such but I haven't had a real design education. Sure I browse around designers' blogs, museums, and books on design in my free time. But still I don't feel I'll ever reach the level of being able to call myself a great designer without a degree or at least some years of education in the field.

How do you guys feel about this. Is an education in design necessary, or could years of self-teaching and a bit of talent just do the trick?
I'm entirely self taught. Make of that what you will.
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Old 13-03-2008, 11:08   #17 (permalink)
d*d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusteh
I think natural talent is a given. You are pretty fucked looking for a job without it.

I'm doing ok
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Old 13-03-2008, 11:22   #18 (permalink)
Dusty
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It's only a matter of time until your cover is blown.
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Old 13-03-2008, 11:34   #19 (permalink)
woodss
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I'm self taught too, i had an arrogance towards lecturers who I felt were teaching rubbish, so I learned myself from trial and error, peers, and basically shitloads of blogs/sites (remember the TeamPhotoshop.com wars? )

ooo - 100th post
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Old 13-03-2008, 11:46   #20 (permalink)
Paddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodss
I'm self taught too, i had an arrogance towards lecturers who I felt were teaching rubbish, so I learned myself from trial and error, peers, and basically shitloads of blogs/sites (remember the TeamPhotoshop.com wars? )

ooo - 100th post
You can have a sig now.
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