[scj]

Fine artist:

- creates art from within
- isn't afraid to get dirty
- isn't afraid to take risk, get criticized, be unique
- makes art whether they are paid or not
- emotionally attached to their art
- carefree, free spirited
- art is life
- examples: Bob Ross, Walt Disney, Monet, Edvard Munch, Richard Serra, Philip Guston, Polluck

Commercial artist

- "proper" artist
- creates art from current trends, fashions, fads, formulas
- neat freak, detail oriented about everything
- often stressed, high pressure, must meet deadlines
- not as emotionally attached to their work
- very critical, sharp tongued, rude
- perfectionist, over analytical
- money/marketing/perfection is life
- examples: anyone working in print/magazines, web, or television


Fine Art is true art
Commercial art is art under the authority of big business. (aka manufactured art)

[bender]

Thank you.

[Maerk]

Bit judgemental, plenty of artists cross the very blurry lines, after all an artist needs to make money to live. (I'm in no way claiming myself as either, I'm a corporate whore designer.) Plus commercial artist automatically makes them an asshat? Niceee... Because "true" artists and art critics are all such fluffy loving kind flower loving hippies.

Plus all the great masters in the past - who we all picture as one mad man and an easel were often a master and a whole studio of understudies painting under his direction and his style and technique, and purely for money, which is why there was so much religious art, it was nearly all commission work.

The idea of an artist working producing completely conceptually for love of art alone seems a much more recent thing.

[pgo]

The bullshit is running thick tonight.

Maerk: You're right - the modern conception of the artist is just that - modern. It really arose out of the late 19th century's move into Modernism and covers not only the fine arts, but literature and poetry as well (Walt Whitman). Bringing up the fact that old art was all comission based relies on the understanding of the context of the different eras (that concept of the artist).

scj: You obviously don't know anything about art.

Originally Posted by scj

- examples: Bob Ross, Walt Disney

Hahahahahahahaha.

Walt Disney's products are the most commercial of the commercial - there's no bigger business than Disney. Bob Ross (as an artist) is boring, uninspired, generic, soulless, and mindless. Art for the uneducated masses - "pretty pictures". He is the antithesis of what real artists strive for - to discover their unique voice.

You could have, you know, picked some powerhouses of art like...oh...I don't know. Picasso. Pollock. Rothko. Van Gogh. Cezanne. Da Vinci. Goya. And a thousand others.

[Maerk]

Fuck, I hadn't even registered his suggestions

[pgo]

What's next? Thomas Kincaid, "Painter of Light".

that hack

[scj]

pgo,

I mention Disney the person, not Disney the business. Disney the person did not create mickey from high priced focus groups, current trends, or children's studies, but I read he made him for his niece. As for Bob Ross, he differs much from Kincaid in that he paints what he loves, where as Kincaid paints what will sell (if pink bunnies sold, Kincaid would paint/mass produce pink bunnies). I believe Ross was doing that work way before the show, or his books came into play.

You're right though, I could have mentioned more, like Edvard Munch or Monet.

Oh, and btw, commissioned art is just a way of saying commercial art for that time.


scj

[scj]

pgo,

To be fair, when I say free spirited, I don't me "not depressed/suicidal" etc., but I mean not afraid to go against society to be themselves and create what they want.

I've added a few more examples of fine artists to the list

scj

[scj]

Originally Posted by pgo

Art for the uneducated masses - "pretty pictures". He is the antithesis of what real artists strive for - to discover their unique voice.

You know, pgo, in a strange way you actually made my point. You probably weren't smart enough to notice that you just told us all what REAL ARTIST are and what they strive for, "their unique voice"

And what is the unique voice of an artist that spends all their time making commercial art for the masses? According to pgo, they aren't "real artists".

commercial artists = whores & big business = the big pimp

"Get out there and make me some MONEY!"

[hawken]

I'm a commercial artist.

And I know it.

It even says so on my website

One of the key things about being a commercial artist is that you can change your style to fit the clients needs. Look at my portfolio, it's all over the place! I don't think I have one particular style within me.

The dangers of being a fine artist are that once someone uses your style, it's dead. And so are you.

[brendan hart]

Ok your forgetting that art isnt just painting and drawing, art can be anything that makes some one happy when they see, hear, taste, smell, and feel. Some one so passionate at something can make it an art.

In my opinion
I'd say fishing is an art, because people have their own styles eg. handlines, game fishing, fly fishing, lure fishing, jigging etc. and some people have different methods thoughts and feelings on how it is done, but its still a form of art.

I mean i wasnt really an artist by going fishing but those who try to do something else designing new fishing rods trying new baits finding new spots, those people are the artists.

- creates art from within
- isn't afraid to get dirty - finding new places, trying new bait
- isn't afraid to take risk, get criticized, be unique - Again new bait new places
- makes art whether they are paid or not
- emotionally attached to their art - Well beleifs, I believe sunscreen tastes bad to fish so we do put it on when we fish
- carefree, free spirited - Exactly what fishing is!
- art is life - To alot of people it is

[print.Action]

SCJ, it seems to me what you suggest is that commercial artists are afraid to get dirty? I design and build custom tradeshow exhibits and i'm fairly sure I get dirtier than most fine artists. I do fine art as well, mostly abstract paintings commission only. I can tell you while its fun, it sure as hell doesn't pay the bills. You also make it seem as tho a commercial artist has no creativity or doesn't design from within. you need to take a look at people like pat fallon, milton glaser, tim larsen etc...and tell me they aren't creative. They come from an art background, and have built such a name that businesses come to them begging for their ideas, and trust them for guidance. Your post makes it seem like one cannot be a commercial artist who enjoys fine art because you attack the artist themselves and not the situations within which they work, and don't realize many people work in both disciplines. Get your fucking head on straight you jealous(not to mention very pretentious) asshole.

I also know a lot of fine artists who produce the art they do specifically for the fact that it people will like it and it will sell. Art doesn't make it very far if people don't pay attention to it. Get off your high horse, you haven't proven shit in either discipline yet you speak like you know all about both, and that people should value your opinion. When i hear of your work i'll consider listening to what you have to say, until then, sorry pal.

p.s. this website proves that many people who consider themselves designers are just people who design for web and nothing else, what with ther AA or AS degree in graphic design. You can tell that just by the amount of time people spend in the web design and web standards forum as opposed to print, typography, logos, etc,...disciplines that take craft and true knowledge of the concept of "design". I'm sorry but looking at endless web 2.0 sites with glossy logos and gradients and reflections gets so very boring compared to designing for print and working with typography, branding and coming up with real ideas. We need to have a discussion on preparing print work for offset printing sometime, it's amazing how much deeper the knowledge of art, design, and craft is over at the print forum compared to the web forum.

Design is a privilege, craft is the responsibility. Act like an adult lol. I'm not really as a mad as I sound, It's just late and people like SCJ torque me off.

[scj]

Originally Posted by print.Action

Your post makes it seem like one cannot be a commercial artist who enjoys fine art because you attack the artist themselves and not the situations within which they work,

I'm not attacking artist, I'm attacking the system of commercial art. You're right, people have to make a living, and I'm not saying people can't do both fine & commercial art. But you can't deny the commercial side is fucked up, if your honest.

Commercial art is the only system where you really don't have to have talent to participate. Learn the formula, market yourself/network/make connections, be quick on your Photoshop keys & you're in. This isn't just true for art, but also the art form of music. Ever heard of Britney Spears? Paris Hilton has a cd you know?

Get your fucking head on straight you jealous(not to mention very pretentious) asshole.

jealous? huh? of whom? weird...

I also know a lot of fine artists who produce the art they do specifically for the fact that it people will like it and it will sell. Art doesn't make it very far if people don't pay attention to it.

What the heck are you talking about???? Lots of great artists regarded today were shunned by society while they were alive. They didn't care because they weren't doing it for the people, they were expressing who they are. again, weird...

Get off your high horse, you haven't proven shit in either discipline yet you speak like you know all about both, and that people should value your opinion. When i hear of your work i'll consider listening to what you have to say, until then, sorry pal.

Ok you over emotional freedom of speech killer! Are you a politician? Have you proven yourself in the military? Then what gives you the right to voice an opinion on the Iraq War? Do you play baseball? Are you in the Majors? How many home runs have you hit? Then what gives you the right to voice opinion on Barry Bonds.

AGAIN, weird...!!!

Design is a privilege, craft is the responsibility. Act like an adult lol. I'm not really as a mad as I sound, It's just late and people like SCJ torque me off.

I read your ps, and it looks like you offer some interesting advice. I love learning and I think you have alot to say. But you have no reason to be pissed at me, if you disagree or have valid points that I paint with a broad brush then say simply say so.

[scj]

_

[print.Action]

dude your right, i read back through my post, i got way too heated, however i still feel my points are valid. I work in the commercial art business, and find it just as rewarding as the fine art discipline, and i dont mean monetarily. I believe the freedom to create solutions to problems and fill voids is very good for the soul. I'm not going to go design for wal mart ever, i don't want to. But to me there is nothing better than designing a killer logo, a well-done unique business set, and a big idea for a small company. Especially when you see these small companies surviving in the world of wal-mart thanks to their marketing guidance and identity. Then you design an amazing artistic exhibit property for them at tradeshows because they are smart enough to realize the potential of a tradeshow productivity. They show up, and their booth blows the big wig booths out of the water not only because they invested in it, but because it reflects their brand and stance, which also means alot to them, sometimes more than bottom line numbers, and so much that they would sooner sink with the ship than give up their virtues. Isn't that the idea both of our posts are going for?

P.S I couldn't care less about Barry Bonds, but the twins do mean a lot to me.

[scj]

print Action,

Thanks for this post. I think, in a way, we are saying the same thing. I'm glad to see you using your talent and pulling for the underdog. That's awesome! And I can respect that.

[print.Action]

More people are doing it than you probably think. When you look at award winning designs like that addies and the clios, the best ones are always for the small companies that really pour themselves into their brand and philosophy and truely believe their product serves great purpose. I'm originally a small town Iowa boy, so I grew up on small business and believe thats the way things should be.

Now you got me all excited, as I think mending the wounds between fine and commercial artists and pushing towards a common philosophy is a big deal in our generation. I've never liked big business ethics or design ideas, as they are usually masking the truth of their product. I think a coalition should exist between graphic artists and fine artists with a common goal of a better quality of life. I'm only 21, so I don't know how EVERYTHING works out there but I wouldn't mind seeing a change for the better.

[scj]

Good idea. I would be interested in joining such an organization. Alot of my opinions come from what I've seen in the universities, as a freelancer artist, and in general. I started out as an animator, and I hated to see how the love for designing cool characters & content was replaced by talentless money hungry ideas.

Regardless of its popularity, South Park wasn't started by artists, animators, or anything like that. It sells on controversy, not creativity. There's a market for that, but I wouldn't call it art.

There was a post similar to this on Disney boards, about how the magic of Disney seems to be lost in the old classics. Did you feel Disney magic in Cars? The Incredibles? I think they are trendy and commercially constructed fads. Lord of the Rings was based on creativity and came from within (I know Disney didn't make that but...). LOTR is also timeless. Cars is probably old by now.

I also agree with you about big business & walmart. Markets don't sell products and services anymore, they sell ideas, philosophies and lies. "Buy Nikes and you'll be cool like LeBron James", eat Pizza Hut because Jessica Simpson loves it!

yuck

scj

[pgo]

How old are you, scj? Where did you go to art school and in what field? How many paintings have you sold and how many shows have you had in real galleries?

All you seem to know is stereotypes and cliches.

To be fair, when I say free spirited, I don't me "not depressed/suicidal" etc., but I mean not afraid to go against society to be themselves and create what they want.

No one said anything about "depressed/suicidal".

Anyway, fight the power, brother!

You know, pgo, in a strange way you actually made my point. You probably weren't smart enough to notice that you just told us all what REAL ARTIST are and what they strive for, "their unique voice"

And what is the unique voice of an artist that spends all their time making commercial art for the masses? According to pgo, they aren't "real artists".

How did I make your point - you're the imbecile who said that Bob Ross and Walt Disney are fine artists.

Also, I didn't say that commercial artists aren't "real artists" - I said they aren't fine artists. It's like saying "that poet is not a novelist" or "that screenwriter is not a playwright" or "that doctor is not a lawyer!" It's a meaningless distinction.

EDIT: haha, he threw a few real artists into the mix next to Bob Ross and Walt Disney. By the way, you misspelled Pollock.

[Herr Kurm]

May I suggest a wank to cool off your heads?