Web Design Forums

Digital · 05-01-2008, 21:45

What do you think after the website is designed are the files property of the designer or the client? Also just the HTML/CSS, and image files or sources files such as PHP/MySQL and Flash files as well?

I know that an agreement would owerwrite any theories but what if there was no agreement?
Basically I'd like to know what is generally considered or how this usually works, what the law generally says about this...

Anyway just want to see some facts and opinions, what you people know or think here. Thanks.

iblastoff · 06-01-2008, 00:00

well the client is paying for it. so most likely theirs.

Digital · 06-01-2008, 00:27

Yeah they are paying for it... But if they receive all the source files and then they at some point decide to go with another designer who is very cheap or a friend that will do it for free or some other reason, then that person will have free access to source files that took months or years to develope, and it is not fair to the original designer...

For example if it is a contact form programmed in PHP, or a feedback form with PHP & MySQL, or whatever. The original designer spent hours to design and program it, but the person taking over will get it for no cost and will be able to use it on his other projects/websites. Of course if the client paid good money then its not too unfair and could be let to be, but most clients want good deals and are not interested in spending a lot of money so I don't think giving them the source files would be reasonable.

Chino · 15-01-2008, 11:38

please correct me if i'm wrong, if someone has legal knowledge but i disagree with iblastoff; i just had this exact issue last night and it burned me that the client got irritated that i wouldn't hand over the source files.

basically this is how i see it. when you go to a real photographer. you pay good money but what do you get? unless specified beforehand, you get prints. say if you go to the mall for photos, you get prints. they don't generally give you the negatives or (now) digital files unless you pay extra.

we take our kids to a freelance photographer and she is excellent, she gives us a cd of the files but we pay a pretty price for that. and with it, she gives us a bill of release, meaning they're ours now.

if you're client wants the source files, gladly say, "of course you can have them, my source file fee is (x amount of money)."

if they get their underwear in a knot, mention that when they take their kiddies to the mall for photos. they get photos, not the digital files unless they pay extra.

i knew this yesterday but i forgot to use this example with my client and he was pretty burned which made me mad because he came straight out and said that he wanted to use another designer which is less expensive.

if you're contracted to make a web site for a client, the client is paying for a WEB SITE, not the source files that were used in the process of that site.

EDIT: get a contract and use it next time.

this doesn't guarantee that the client won't get upset but at least you're covered in writing.

EDIT #2: got off of the phone with the client, could not, for the life of me, make him understand the logic behind my position and i caved. giving up the source files. possibility of return customer: 0.

heading to the 'F off' thread.

"former freelancer looking for new line of work."

Bryce · 28-01-2008, 08:31

Well, wouldn't the files be on their web server then? So you can't really keep the source files since it'd be used to make the website 'work'.

Cookie503 · 28-01-2008, 09:24

I'm very interested on this topic as well. I've been working on a website the last few weeks, and now the hole deal is done. BUT...some idiot friend of the client thought he can improve my work, and changed a couple of visual elements. That got me really mad, and got me thinking if there is any way of protecting our work from being changed or reused without our permission in future...

d*d · 28-01-2008, 09:38

You can not stop a client altering your work when you have finished it, once they have paid you it is theirs.

weldo · 28-01-2008, 09:57

don't give them source files.

if they are paying you for a website - then give them thet files neccessarry for the website to work. no fla's, no psd's etc ...

ultimately - they will own it and can do what they like with it.

d*d · 28-01-2008, 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by weldo

don't give them source files.

if they are paying you for a website - then give them thet files neccessarry for the website to work. no fla's, no psd's etc ...

ultimately - they will own it and can do what they like with it.

server side script files (php, asp etc) and client side scripts (jvascript) are different though, they need those for the site to work

Paul_F · 28-01-2008, 10:58

You just need to make it clear to the client what they are getting. If you are providing a custom built CMS, then you can provide them with a licence to use it but the files remain copyrighted to yourself, and they cannot then sell your system on to someone else.

The client owns the content and the design.

mx · 28-01-2008, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital

The original designer spent hours to design and program it, but the person taking over will get it for no cost and will be able to use it on his other projects/websites.

Yeah, but you can re-use and recharge for the code you made on future projects as well. If it's so custom that you can't reuse it on another project, then the chances are no-one else will either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d*d

server side script files (php, asp etc) and client side scripts (jvascript) are different though, they need those for the site to work

You could always compress/optimise the .js files if you were worried about people using your source as a base.

Chino · 28-01-2008, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

Well, wouldn't the files be on their web server then? So you can't really keep the source files since it'd be used to make the website 'work'.

you're talking about html source, yes, they get that and the sliced up images. when we say source files, we mean the original illustrator, photoshop or whatever else you use to create the original artwork. layered files.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d*d

You can not stop a client altering your work when you have finished it, once they have paid you it is theirs.

unless outlined in contract.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_F

The client owns the content and the design.

this is partly incorrect. they own their website, but not exclusivity to that design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx

You could always compress/optimise the .js files if you were worried about people using your source as a base.

mx has the right idea.

digital rights and freelancing is a tricky business. the artist has a lot more rights than i think most people realize. and this is especially tricky when the client doesn't know WTH goes in to a website or other artwork. they figure since they paid you, they own everything you've done concerning that project which is not true. unless specified otherwise, the code and artwork is the creator's. yes, the sliced images and source code is necessary for the site to function but that doesn't mean they own exclusive rights to those things. a contract can stipulate otherwise but if there is no contract, by default, that stuff belongs to the creator.

if you put in the contract that they get the source files, meaning .AI, .PSD or source code and whatever else, then obviously it's theirs after payment.

in my understanding, and unless the laws have changed, that's how things are as of now.

Snazzbum · 08-02-2008, 20:48

It probably varies in different countries but in the UK the creator of any work owns that piece of work and all rights of use for it unless they assign those rights to some one else. Of course IP (intellectual property) law can be a quagmire and prooving who is the creator an absolute nightmare if it becomes neccesary.

Hence your own contract and terms should make it perfectly clear what rights you give the site owner on completion of the work. Do you hand it over outright and let them do what they wish once it's out of your hands? Or do you just give them a 'license' to use the design and code behind it and if so for how long? How do they change things if they do just want a minor change, a change of logo for instance, can they just go ahead or do they need to ask your permission?

05-01-2008, 21:45	#1 (permalink)
Digital Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 66	Website files ownership... What do you think after the website is designed are the files property of the designer or the client? Also just the HTML/CSS, and image files or sources files such as PHP/MySQL and Flash files as well? I know that an agreement would owerwrite any theories but what if there was no agreement? Basically I'd like to know what is generally considered or how this usually works, what the law generally says about this... Anyway just want to see some facts and opinions, what you people know or think here. Thanks.

06-01-2008, 00:00	#2 (permalink)
iblastoff gotsa a malanga! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: ottawa, canada Posts: 489	well the client is paying for it. so most likely theirs. __________________ stevelam.ca \| sickpill.com

15-01-2008, 11:38	#4 (permalink)
Chino Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 18	please correct me if i'm wrong, if someone has legal knowledge but i disagree with iblastoff; i just had this exact issue last night and it burned me that the client got irritated that i wouldn't hand over the source files. basically this is how i see it. when you go to a real photographer. you pay good money but what do you get? unless specified beforehand, you get prints. say if you go to the mall for photos, you get prints. they don't generally give you the negatives or (now) digital files unless you pay extra. we take our kids to a freelance photographer and she is excellent, she gives us a cd of the files but we pay a pretty price for that. and with it, she gives us a bill of release, meaning they're ours now. if you're client wants the source files, gladly say, "of course you can have them, my source file fee is (x amount of money)." if they get their underwear in a knot, mention that when they take their kiddies to the mall for photos. they get photos, not the digital files unless they pay extra. i knew this yesterday but i forgot to use this example with my client and he was pretty burned which made me mad because he came straight out and said that he wanted to use another designer which is less expensive. if you're contracted to make a web site for a client, the client is paying for a WEB SITE, not the source files that were used in the process of that site. EDIT: get a contract and use it next time. this doesn't guarantee that the client won't get upset but at least you're covered in writing. EDIT #2: got off of the phone with the client, could not, for the life of me, make him understand the logic behind my position and i caved. giving up the source files. possibility of return customer: 0. heading to the 'F off' thread. "former freelancer looking for new line of work." Last edited by Chino : 15-01-2008 at 16:13.

28-01-2008, 09:57	#8 (permalink)
weldo now with added beard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Liverpool Posts: 5,434	don't give them source files. if they are paying you for a website - then give them thet files neccessarry for the website to work. no fla's, no psd's etc ... ultimately - they will own it and can do what they like with it. __________________ fuck signatures

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06-01-2008, 00:27	#3 (permalink)
Digital Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 66	Yeah they are paying for it... But if they receive all the source files and then they at some point decide to go with another designer who is very cheap or a friend that will do it for free or some other reason, then that person will have free access to source files that took months or years to develope, and it is not fair to the original designer... For example if it is a contact form programmed in PHP, or a feedback form with PHP & MySQL, or whatever. The original designer spent hours to design and program it, but the person taking over will get it for no cost and will be able to use it on his other projects/websites. Of course if the client paid good money then its not too unfair and could be let to be, but most clients want good deals and are not interested in spending a lot of money so I don't think giving them the source files would be reasonable.

28-01-2008, 08:31	#5 (permalink)
Bryce Web Developer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 84	Well, wouldn't the files be on their web server then? So you can't really keep the source files since it'd be used to make the website 'work'.

28-01-2008, 09:24	#6 (permalink)
Cookie503 Cookie Monster Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brasov - Romania Posts: 53	I'm very interested on this topic as well. I've been working on a website the last few weeks, and now the hole deal is done. BUT...some idiot friend of the client thought he can improve my work, and changed a couple of visual elements. That got me really mad, and got me thinking if there is any way of protecting our work from being changed or reused without our permission in future...

28-01-2008, 09:38	#7 (permalink)
d*d Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bristol Posts: 3,302	You can not stop a client altering your work when you have finished it, once they have paid you it is theirs.

28-01-2008, 10:58	#10 (permalink)
Paul_F Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 25	You just need to make it clear to the client what they are getting. If you are providing a custom built CMS, then you can provide them with a licence to use it but the files remain copyrighted to yourself, and they cannot then sell your system on to someone else. The client owns the content and the design.

08-02-2008, 20:48	#13 (permalink)
Snazzbum Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5	It probably varies in different countries but in the UK the creator of any work owns that piece of work and all rights of use for it unless they assign those rights to some one else. Of course IP (intellectual property) law can be a quagmire and prooving who is the creator an absolute nightmare if it becomes neccesary. Hence your own contract and terms should make it perfectly clear what rights you give the site owner on completion of the work. Do you hand it over outright and let them do what they wish once it's out of your hands? Or do you just give them a 'license' to use the design and code behind it and if so for how long? How do they change things if they do just want a minor change, a change of logo for instance, can they just go ahead or do they need to ask your permission?

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