[Coops]

Originally Posted by herkalees

I hope to have that option someday but the cost-of-living in my area is quite high, and I'm recently married... so I'll keep the day-job until something magical happens.

Does your boss know you're leading a double life?

[herkalees]

Originally Posted by Coops

Does your boss know you're leading a double life?

Told him during my interview, almost two years ago.

"Fine, just don't let it interfere," he said.

[Coops]

Cool then.

[RaelRode]

You asked for a "horror" story so here's one.

A client asks me to make their website behave in a way that when somebody isn't logged in, a new "pre-login" website shows and asks the to either login or register.

I created it and it was all working, so I sent him the files *big mistake* he puts it up to test and everything he wanted and it was fine. he says OK I will send the money over tomorrow when my I speak to my business partner. Next day I try to contact him and he disappears. I decided to leave it for a week, and when I go to check the website I see theres a totally new "pre-login" page and it looks like a pile of shit, and mine was waaay better, not only my words I showed it to a load of people.

My price was cheap aswell, they guy offered to pa for what I had done - I was going to ask for payment anyways - but now I cant get hld of him and he's gone of the map totally.


Clients can be fuckers its just finding a decent one - if there are any. Cause I haven't found one yet.

[herkalees]

Originally Posted by RaelRode

...I go to check the website I see theres a totally new "pre-login" page and it looks like a pile of shit, and mine was waaay better...

This happened to me a while ago (but I got paid):
Mine: http://bostonwebstudio.com/new/portf...dex-design.png
End result: Ink Oil Premium Tattoo Care

[designfreak]

yeah, I think yours look way better too herkalees, but I see he has boobs on his new site. Whats up you wouldnt give him the boobs? haha!

[emoment-design]

Originally Posted by designfreak

Whats the deal? I get loads of leads but they all end up bust, it seems like. Most of them anyways. It seems like the hang-ups are on price (and I am very competitively priced), getting info and or content from the client, and getting the contract signed!

It seems like no matter what you quote its always more than what they expected to pay, ALWAYS! I had a guy he wanted a site with a flash intro, flash header, photo gallery, newsletter signup, backdoor admin to update himself and these were just the features. There were also 5 purely content pages, you know home, about us, contact, etc. I quoted the job and he freaked (just under a $1,000), he couldn't believe he was paying this much for a few pages. I tried to explain about all the features but it went in one ear and out the other. Then he comes back with this $500 budget, I tell him we will have to cut some features to keep it under $500. But no that was not acceptable. So we went our separate ways. I hate when they have all these expectations for a website but clearly have no ideas when it comes to cost for the service. And will not budge on their budget. I had another guy he sales boats, nice, brand new, large beautiful boats! He wanted to redesign his site to show his inventory online (that he could maintain himself) and allow customers to fill out his credit app online. Its a small site, less than 10 pages but he only wanted to spend $200 for the site. I said no way! I gave him my quote and we went back and forth. Finally I told him to go shop around because I am not going to lower the price and you will soon see what a good deal I am offering! He ended up working with me after all but, damn! Its like you have to go in defending yourself, like web designers have been reduced to the same level as cheesy used car salesmen. Like we are out to get you for every penny you got. I am sure there are some out there but we seem to have all been thrown in together.

Getting info is like pulling teeth. There is the other kind of client. The yes, yes, yes is it ready yet, yes? Yes, I want a website, price sounds fine, sure throw in those features, when's it gonna be done because I needed it like yesterday! My reply, okay well I will need you to send me the content for all the pages, images and description for your products etc! What I actually have to work? Cant you figure out all this shit on your own? I actually had one client tell me, if she knew she was going to have to do all this content stuff she would have decided against getting a website. She don't have time to get all this stuff together and can I just go to a few of her competitor sites and use there information in my own words to be placed on her site. And as far as her products, could I just go to the manufactures websites and get the info from there to be placed on her site? She had a few articles written about her and won a few awards could I just get a hold of this info and use it for her home and about pages? Oh, but the real kicker, she didn't want to pay extra for all of my research! What the? I have another client, adamant about his site being optimized. But only wants two pages no more and no less! And on the front page only wants big images. The second page, yeah contact us! I told him content is king when it comes to SEO! So he sends me one very small paragraph for content. There you go, now get to work!

Getting a contract signed, are you kidding me? This is probably the reason why my leads turn bust! My contract is pretty straight forward, nothing crazy like you'll owe me a shit load of money if you go flaken, I am one sue happy mutha! Just your basic, this is what your site is going to consist of (pages and features), this is what I need from you before work is started (content, images, descriptions, a few sites you found that you like, layout function and colors, etc.), what to expect (I am not going to revise the same page 100 times because every person you talk to has a new and completely different opinion on how the page should look) not for free anyways, timeline, cost, and termination (you can terminate at any time but your not getting any refunds and if your site is nearly completed and you decide to flake you owe me for whats been done so far)! I usually provide a one page proof to be approved before payment (usually 50% of quoted price), then the rest upon completion.

Anyways these are my issues, you guys seeing the same thing? Lets hear some horror stories, and cant believe situations! I just wanted to talk about it with someone who gets it! Ever try telling someone outside the industry, its like wow that's messed up, so whatcha doing this weekend wanna catch a movie or something. They totally don't get it!

I tootallly agree.
I hate that people just think websites only take a few hours to build and can be ready in days. I anoys mee soo much expeically when you get all the noob webdesigners getting the projects because they offer like $100 for a ecommerce store. People dont get how many hours and research it takes to build a fully success site.

I now just rely on networking which is bring me more leads than anywere else

sorry for my bad spelling was never my strong point lol

[herkalees]

Originally Posted by designfreak

yeah, I think yours look way better too herkalees, but I see he has boobs on his new site. Whats up you wouldnt give him the boobs? haha!

My version had visible boobs too, but then it had to go in my portfolio... and I'm trying to remain a bit professional in there.

[paper_box]

Hi designfreak,

I'm dealing with the same issues with ya everyday (can feel ya pain by the volume of your post, i managed to read the 1st half only btw).

Perhaps you're aiming at the wrong places? Thus all the lousy clients. Maybe you can market yourself in a way that clients come to you instead? At least you'd have the luxury to accept their job requests and all. Well 1st you gotta have lots of credibility to be doing so off course!

I agree getting the job and doing the job are 2 separate tasks!

[roto]

Originally Posted by herkalees

End result: Ink Oil Premium Tattoo Care

Holy shit...seriously?

I guess you're not worried about 'em checking their referrers.

[CWSites]

designfreak - I don't suppose you could share your contract with me? I have one but it's a sample and it's like 8 pages. I'd like to have something a little bit more to the point and yours sounds right.

as for everything else, I've had clients like that. I charged only $800 for an e-commerce site and now I wish I had charged atleast $1400... and ofcourse the client is breathing down my neck to hurry up and finish, even though the deadline isn't until the end of the month and I'm 97% done now... gosh it's so freaking annoying.

[herkalees]

Originally Posted by roto

I guess you're not worried about 'em checking their referrers.

Not at all - we're all entitled to our opinions.

[echo5]

Originally Posted by funkyprem

From my minimal freelance experience, one of my favourite conversations when the started negotiating went along the lines of this:

client: so I think this is a bit much for what you're offering.
me: How much do you pay your accountant?
client: what's that got to do with the price of milk?
me: How much do you pay your accountant?
client: £xx per hour.
me: What's their standard rates?
client: what you jibba jabberting on about foo'?
me: What's thier standard rates?
client: £xx per hour. (same as above)
me: did you try to negotiate the rates with them?
client: err.... errr..... errrr.....
me: do you try to negotiate the price of a pint of milk when you go to [insert your choice of supermarket here]?
client: err.... errr..... errrr.....
me: well i'm offering you a service just like your accountant and you will end up with a product that will help increase your sales/exposure/whatever. you give your accountant the work because he/she can produce your accounts better and quicker than you can. you're giving me the task of producing your website because I can do it quicker and better than you can in the same way as your accountant. why are you trying to knock my rates down for what I believe is a service that is just as valuable to your business as your accountact is and not his??

Amen!

Love this argument, many people think, that with current software everybody can build good websites and put give them the bloody highest pagerank.
Sometimes, potentials or clients just needs to be re-educated.

And about the employee-freelance topic, I have been working at the same agency for a time now, but things are really starting to annoy me, old software, crappy hardware, unrealistic deadlines.

So I really understand why people want to go freelance, but in a world where everthing is getting more and more expensive and with no big client portfolio. It's hard to survive as a freelancer. And when having a house, payments keep coming every month.

How do you freelancers get around at start, when you still have to pay your bills but haven't got a large client base to work with. Did you all used savings or did you all had a medium client base and contacts to work with?

[CWSites]

Originally Posted by echo5

How do you freelancers get around at start, when you still have to pay your bills but haven't got a large client base to work with. Did you all used savings or did you all had a medium client base and contacts to work with?

In my case, I started the freelance when just out of high school, but still had a regular day job. Just made my own website, printed some business cards and let the word of mouth thing spread... First year I wasn't focused on it and only had like 2 clients (2006). This past year (2007) I still had regular jobs, but my freelancing brought in around 10k and I had about 30-35 clients.

I'm sure my self SEO helped, right now I'm ranked #1 for "cumming web design" and some others... I live in Cumming, GA and it's a very $$$ town and growing rapidly, a lot of people with their own businesses needing websites (just to give you a background)

location means everything. start local, then spread.

[roto]

Originally Posted by funkyprem

client: so I think this is a bit much for what you're offering.
me: How much do you pay your accountant?
client: what's that got to do with the price of milk?
me: How much do you pay your accountant?
client: £xx per hour.
me: What's their standard rates?
client: what you jibba jabberting on about foo'?
me: What's thier standard rates?
client: £xx per hour. (same as above)
me: did you try to negotiate the rates with them?
client: err.... errr..... errrr.....
me: do you try to negotiate the price of a pint of milk when you go to [insert your choice of supermarket here]?
client: err.... errr..... errrr.....
me: well i'm offering you a service just like your accountant and you will end up with a product that will help increase your sales/exposure/whatever. you give your accountant the work because he/she can produce your accounts better and quicker than you can. you're giving me the task of producing your website because I can do it quicker and better than you can in the same way as your accountant. why are you trying to knock my rates down for what I believe is a service that is just as valuable to your business as your accountact is and not his??

Great point all 'round. Although I'd never talk to a client like that, the point is I'm sure something we've all faced at one time or another.

I always go back to it in cases like this, but...

Clientcopia : Stupid Client Quotes

[venturewise]

Roto: That site looks amazing, I can't wait to sit down with cuppa and get a good laugh!

CWsites: I also use a 1-page contract (different ones though for different projects), so their eyes don't roll back into their heads. If you want, I can send you a PDF. I've never had to test my legal statements, so hopefully they are enough :-)

Designfreak: Kudos to you for at least ALWAYS using a contract! I didn't always when I was just a sole proprietor, and I got lucky because I only lost a couple hundred dollars (as opposed to the possible thousands).
My advice as a way to get better clients is to go "team up" with a printer that doesn't do a lot of design work, or web sites at all. You can have a mutual understanding that you'll send your printing work to them, if they'll send their customers who also need web sites your way. Printing is pricey - so the clients will already be serious about their marketing, and hopefully will take your services seriously as well!

[luxbrand]

Originally Posted by designfreak

Whats the deal? I get loads of leads but they all end up bust, it seems like.

The leads are weak? The fuckin' leads are weak? You're weak

[echo5]

Originally Posted by luxbrand

The leads are weak? The fuckin' leads are weak? You're weak

LOL I Love this topic!

[pgo]

Originally Posted by luxbrand

Coffee is for closers you fucking faggots.

[roto]

Holy shit...has he gotten fat (and old)! Oh well, it happens to the best of us.



I'll be in Barbados...with my mistress.