[gray]

apparently that michael place build fella only does work his way - ie clients have no creative input, you go to him for his style and he wont do changes - like commissioning an artist

nice work if you can get it

[Narate]

Ive been calling him Michael Palin for as long as I can remember.

There is pretty good audio interview with him, pretty interesting to hear a graphic designer talk about not giving a monkies about design magazines or the industry and just making stuff for himself.

http://www.werkburo.com/werknet/8_view.php?PID=3&page=1

Might have been taken down form the looks of things

My Build Design tip is to believe in yourself, try not to compromise the work you produce, in the end people will have more respect for you.

Thats him

[pgo]

Originally Posted by jase1000

That article is crap by the way. I went to art school with architects, designers, painters (inc. myself) and sculptors. Design is an important art form and top designers are as well recognised as top artists. I made the shift from art to design because the art world has so much bullshit attached to it.

I'm in the exact same position - got a BFA and now moving into design.

Not because of art world bullshit (and it is, to a degree - but I've found more pretension among designers than artists. No offense intended to designers out there, but designer != artist...sorry, two very different things.)

The way I see the job as a designer is to use strong visual communication skills to help marketing - help a client communicate their message so they make more money, which in turn makes you money.

I'm moving into web design and possibly other pursuits for one thing - money. And I also enjoy it.

[briljant oranje]

Originally Posted by d*d

yeah-I call it a job

I guess that's where we differ then.

I've got a real passion for design, it's not just a job to me.

i'm not gonna sell out and put my name to some shit just because some suit thats never heard the word 'no' in his life offers me a few quid.

I'm not picking up the soap for anybody.

[Little Noni]

Originally Posted by d*d

How pretentious, It's their money, they can have what the fuck they like. if your going to get precious over your design become an artist, you can advise a client but it's just that 'advice'. Selling your concept is a vital skill to have, just because a client does not share your vision doesn't make them morons, they may know a lot more about their target market than you do.
My advice is to work with a client, ensure that you both share the same vision and idea for the design and work on communicating how your work meets the requirements of the brief

That's exactly what I want from the project; to reach a common ground, but he is refusing to budge.

I'm not being pretentious at all. Far from it. I'm concerned that he is putting alot of money into something that could fail because he doesn't know his market at all.

And yes, if he was experienced in publishing or in the market he's targeting I would take his advice and go with him on this one - afterall this gig is about learning too... and it's not up to me to change a formula that is proven and works... But, this guy is a beginner whose never produced anything for print before. He's asking for images and tables to be stretched which is off-setting everything.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for people switching things up a bit and breaking out of the mold.... but, sometimes you just have to say "look this really doesn't work and is going to look cheap, and in the long run will do a disservice (sp) to you and to your product".

But....
Maybe I have got this one wrong. If I have, I'll have learned a lesson for next time.
Thanks for all the advice everyone.

[d*d]

Originally Posted by jase1000

top designers are as well recognised as top artists. I made the shift from art to design because the art world has so much bullshit attached to it.

Agree, but it takes a long time to generate a demonstrable body of work which affords you that reputation, what pisses me off is the assumption you should have that kudos simply because you have a design qualification. I don't believe in being a design workhorse (although you could argue that is what a jobbing designer is), but as part of an agency if one of the clients is adamant about the way something should look then we do it that way to mantain client relations, I work as part of a team, each design I'm involved in is usually the culimination of a few people working together - if we threw our toys out everytime something didn't go our way creatively then nothing would get done. I can't be the only designer with client pleasing sensibilities here?

designer - here are the visuals for your project
client - hmmm.. nice, would blue be better
designer- no, red communicates more clearly the underlying sense of urgency that is prevelant in this piece.
client - I understand that, but change it to blue
designer - no, I will not compromise my artistic integrity for you
client - I'm paying you a lot of money for this
designer - pah, money - who needs money - I work for the love of design, it's forms, it's functions, if I cannot create beauty I will die.
client - go away.
designer - you'll rue the day you ever said that to the recently graduated design sensation about to take london by storm
client - go away.

[pgo]

And then "designer" goes and crawls into his cardboard box in the alley to sleep - still wondering why no one ever hires him as a commercial artist (a.k.a "designer").

[jase1000]

Originally Posted by d*d

Agree, but it takes a long time to generate a demonstrable body of work which affords you that reputation

The point is that you don't have to be an artist to get creative recognition as you suggested in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by d*d

what pisses me off is the assumption you should have that kudos simply because you have a design qualification

Who here is making that assumption? Obviously there is some kudos attached to having a design qualification or else who would bother doing one. It does mean you're qualified after all.

I don't totally disagree with what you are saying. Of course, once you take a job on, you are gonna have to make compromises vitually every time to please the client. However, it's not pretentious or smart arsed as you seem to think to turn away a client who you just know is gonna want a really crap design that you don't agree with. It's the best thing for both parties.

[d*d]

Originally Posted by jase1000

However, it's not pretentious or smart arsed as you seem to think to turn away a client who you just know is gonna want a really crap design that you don't agree with. It's the best thing for both parties.

Now I never said that, my posts have been inspired by comments along this vain

'i'm not gonna sell out and put my name to some shit just because some suit thats never heard the word 'no' in his life offers me a few quid.'

'Why employ a designer if you think you know better yourself? Unfortunately tho', when it comes to design, opinions are like arseholes.'

'creatives live and die (not usually literally) by the work they do, so if a client basically wants to hire you to be a software operator and not a designer, i'd fuck them off.'

The whole I'm a designer I know better attitude is wrong, if you fuck 'suits' off because they dare to have an arsehole of an opinion then I'm afraid you will die financially if not creatively - unless you can work your way to the top of your tree where people will come to you for your style and consultancy skills, not just because your a 'designer'

[pgo]

I absolutely agree with d*d here.

I hear way to much shit about "losing creative integrity" and not "selling out", when those are the very things that separate designers from fine artists - in fact, the whole notion of being a designer is selling out - without a client/suit, there is no designer.

That and different attitudes and purposes, but we don't need to get into that.

[Alexanda]

thats the good thing about working for yourself you do the style of work you want to do, and if your any good you'll earn some money.

[finbarr]

agree with what your saying DD but I have to admit - when reading your posts - it did come across as a tad sanctimonious.

I suspect every designer gets into this type of field expecting to be able to 'show the world what they can do' on every occassion and time and experience tells us that it rarely pans out like that.

Bottom line for anyone is 'Do you wanna get paid or can you afford integrity?' Chances are, Little Noni, you'll ask yourself that at least once a month cos there are far more shit clients than there are good ones

[d*d]

Originally Posted by finbarr

when reading your posts - it did come across as a tad sanctimonious.

thankyou

[d*d]

actually I just looked 'sanctimonious' up, it's not a good thing

[finbarr]

Originally Posted by d*d

actually I just looked 'sanctimonious' up, it's not a good thing

haha... I thought you were being ironic when you said thanks.

What you said was right tho'

[Luke Redpath]

Originally Posted by pgo

I absolutely agree with d*d here.

I hear way to much shit about "losing creative integrity" and not "selling out", when those are the very things that separate designers from fine artists - in fact, the whole notion of being a designer is selling out - without a client/suit, there is no designer.

That and different attitudes and purposes, but we don't need to get into that.

Personally, I see this as less about "selling out" etc. and more about being told how to do your job by somebody who doesn't have any clue about design. These suits don't start telling me how to program - they wouldn't have a clue anyway. Or if you got an electrician in to do some work, you wouldn't start telling them how to do their job - they are after all the expert. You pay people for their expertise. You tell them what you need doing but you rely on their expertise to do the job properly.

Unfortunately, it seems that everybody fancies themselves as a bit of a designer.

[illvibe]

Originally Posted by Luke Redpath

Unfortunately, it seems that everybody fancies themselves as a bit of a designer.

Preach...everyone's an expert. I've got to say though, you can break bad clients and turn them into good ones. It takes a lot of perseverance and very good communication (sales exp. a plus!). Sure, they might still want blue instead of red, but when it comes to the crunch and you put your foot down (gently), they will trust your taste over their own. It can be done.

After all, they're hiring you as an arbiter of what does and doesn't look good. You shouldn't simply be a tool to channel their creative urges. The client isn't the art director. And they need to know that.

[d*d]

Originally Posted by illvibe

Preach...everyone's an expert. I've got to say though, you can break bad clients and turn them into good ones. It takes a lot of perseverance and very good communication (sales exp. a plus!). Sure, they might still want blue instead of red, but when it comes to the crunch and you put your foot down (gently), they will trust your taste over their own. It can be done.

Most definately, most of our clients have been with us for years and trust what we do because we have a proven track record with them, it also becomes easier to tell thim if ideas are bad. This sort of relationship takes time and skills that you won't be taught on any design courses.

[briljant oranje]

You don't have to class yourself as an artist, or be up your own arse to have a bit of integrity.

If your not happy with what your doing, you've got every right to fuck it off.

it's not about being pretentious. Personally, i'll only do work that i want to do. If i think the client wants me to be a programmer/ software operator and have pretty much fuck all to do with the design, i'll fuck it off.

Each to his own.

[sativo]

Originally Posted by d*d

Now I never said that, my posts have been inspired by comments along this vain

'i'm not gonna sell out and put my name to some shit just because some suit thats never heard the word 'no' in his life offers me a few quid.'

'Why employ a designer if you think you know better yourself? Unfortunately tho', when it comes to design, opinions are like arseholes.'

'creatives live and die (not usually literally) by the work they do, so if a client basically wants to hire you to be a software operator and not a designer, i'd fuck them off.'

The whole I'm a designer I know better attitude is wrong, if you fuck 'suits' off because they dare to have an arsehole of an opinion then I'm afraid you will die financially if not creatively - unless you can work your way to the top of your tree where people will come to you for your style and consultancy skills, not just because your a 'designer'

Just how do you propose a designer develop his or her own style when forced to compromise on every creative point?

I think that if you let a client marginalize your creative contribution you can't ever claim to make a... creative contribution.

At the end of the day it's about balance. As a designer you should always take time to listen and reflect on what the client is asking for. Be open to a dialogue and take feedback as a creative challenge. Getting out of your own comfort zone is the only way to grow.

On the other hand, there are clients who just don't get it. They don't care for your process, your passion, or your experience. They're arrogant. Sometimes, with time, patience, and diplomacy, you can win them over and get them to release some creative control. But other times you can't. It's important to know when that is and when to simply make a referral.